Faith is not to be accompanied by anything at conversion?

[Obsidian]

Did Jesus misspeak when he said that the centurion, who had merely expressed a belief, had more "pistis" than the people of Israel?

[37818]

When we our self's are baptized we are born again in Christ - as they say, the immersion into the water is the sign of death and when we lift up (or rise) it is the sign of the Resurrection.

One is not born again through water baptism. One is born again through faith in Christ (1 John 5:1).

[tabibito]

EDIT:

Note further that prepositions can have an impact on the specific meaning of a noun. "By faith" is a distinct issue, and that one is "emunah" for "the just shall live by faith".

As for the centurion - can it be demonstrated that Jesus DID NOT mean that the centurion had demonstrated faithfulness?

[Obsidian]

What notable faithfulness did he demonstrate that was greater than the people of Israel? Just read the text for what it says and stop trying to jam your own ideas into it.

[tabibito]

What notable faithfulness did he demonstrate that was greater than the people of Israel? Just read the text for what it says and stop trying to jam your own ideas into it.

I was addressing the matter of "by faith" and salvation. Your red herring about the centurion doesn't have anything to do with "by faith" - and it doesn't get within coo-ee of any text that addresses salvation and faith. Nor do I read anything into the red herring text that you brought up.

Of course, red herrings and uppity responses DO have a way of substituting for reasoned debate when the proponent of an argument is unable to substantiate his claims.

[tabibito]

So your saying that "our blindness" and our continual living in the flesh sin can be lifted (uncovered) by faith? or by belief? or by works?

It would have to be all three. Repentance and producing works in keeping with repentance is necessary (if we are to believe Paul, that is) but without the faith (errm... faithfulness) that God extends to the believer, no amount of works or repentance would be of any effect. Who can have faith toward something that is considered unbelievable? Why were the members of the Jewish establishment counted unworthy? (or, why did they count themselves unworthy - Acts 13:46)

How can the spirit become alive when it is dead? What restores the spirit and brings life?

Hmmm... would you mind exapnding this thought a touch?

The question being asked is who lifts us out of our darkness? Who can restore the sight, open our ears and soul (mind) in order for us to be healed? How can we see....how can we hear and understand? If we're blind to faith?

In addressing this issue, Matthew 13:14 might be a good jump off point.

Does God do this without the active cooperation and submission of the believer? Again, 1 John 3: 2b-3 indicates that God does not himself perform purification, but does make purification possible. Cleansing now, that might be a different matter. Washing hands cleanses them, rubbing sanitiser on the hands after washing purifies them ... using sanitiser on unclean hands is a waste of time (and sanitiser)

The object of his coming was reconciliation. He came to heal the breach and bridge the chasm between God and man. We must note one thing quite clearly and always retain it in our memories. The initiative in reconciliation was with God. The New Testament never talks of God being reconciled to men, but always of men being reconciled to God. God's attitude to men was love, and it was never anything else. Sometimes a theology is preached which implies that something that Jesus did changed God's attitude from wrath into love. There is no justification in the New Testament for any such view. It was God who began the whole process of salvation. It was because God so loved the world that he sent his Son. His one object in sending his Son into this world was to woo men back to himself and, as Paul puts it, to reconcile all things to himself.

Minor quibbles with this one, but overall I find myself in agreement.

[Obsidian]

Your red herring about the centurion doesn't have anything to do with "by faith" - and it doesn't get within coo-ee of any text that addresses salvation and faith.

So you are saying that Jesus's healings did not have anything to do with the message of salvation? I say that he was proving to people that he had the power to make all things new.

Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Jesus specifically pointed out this connection between salvation and his miracles in various places. For example, he used the physical resurrection of Lazarus to prove that he could resurrect everyone who believes.

John 11:23-27
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Jesus asked Martha if she believed "this," referring to the statement that he had made (that salvation is by belief). Martha said yes. She went further, and said that the statement that Jesus will save all who believe is itself equivalent to calling him the "Christ." Why are you unwilling to believe the statement? Is your heart hardened to the point that you are unable to believe?

John 12:37-39
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: . . . . Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[tabibito]

Peter's public disavowal of Christ was, in my estimation, an act of disloyalty. The centurion's public avowal of Christ was, again, in my estimation, an act of loyalty.
The centurion was (if memory serves correctly) the only person to decide that Jesus need not put in a personal appearance in order for his command to be obeyed, which would put him at least in the top percentile of people who acknowledged Christ.
Against that is the use of pisteuo in verse 13, which makes it (theoretically) possible that pistis (verse 10) is being used in the sense of "aman: sub-definition 4", though aman is usually translated as πιστευω in the LXX.

None of which impacts on the use of pistin (as conjugated to the dative, πιστει: for which there is no translation in the LXX record of "belief" - it translates either "emunah - loyalty" or "emeth - trustworthiness." Where pistin is declined to the genitive, πιστεως, the LXX translates only emunah).

[Obsidian]

When the centurion merely said that he knew Jesus could heal, you claim that merely saying some words made the centurion among the "top percentile of people who acknowledge Christ"? Well, of course it did! But merely acknowledging Christ is not "loyalty." Acknowledging him as the savior is what is called "faith." I thought you were the one saying that acknowledging Christ as savior is insufficient to get to heaven. The centurion disproves you.

And why do you keep going on about this "by faith" stuff, arguing that when the word "by" is added it means "by living a good life"? In reality, Habbakuk 2 absolutely refers to "faith," not loyalty. In chapter 1, it mentions that the Babylonians will see their victories, become proud, and attribute those victories to their own false gods.

Habbakuk 1:10-11
And they shall scoff at the kings,
and the princes shall be a scorn unto them:
they shall deride every strong hold;
for they shall heap dust, and take it.
Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over,
and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.

Hence, this wicked empire is the people who are "lifted up" (see verse 4 below). In contrast, God's people will have "faith" that God will ultimately prevail and his kingdom will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. In context, having "faith" simply means believing that the vision "not [a] lie" (verse 3 below). Faith means to believe that God is telling the truth.


Habbakuk 2:2-14
2 And the Lord answered me, and said,
Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
that he may run that readeth it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his faith.
. . . .
12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood,
and stablisheth a city by iniquity!
13 Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire,
and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea.

So the pagans are "lifted up" by looking at their present victories, but the just have "faith" that God will ultimately win. The doctrine is not that complicated, as long as you read entire chapter(s) so that you can interpret verses in context. There is nothing about loyalty in the chapter.

[Marta]

Did Jesus misspeak when he said that the centurion, who had merely expressed a belief, had more "pistis" than the people of Israel?

because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is foundJohn 14:26 and Luke 24:49). In Colossians, I thought how Paul's faith-Reason-Knowledge and Wisdom (all the spiritual senses) had grown (exceeded) and been fulfilled. You know (sometimes) by strengths - we grow by each strength and by each strength we are guided and then reach our spiritual level in Christ, who teaches and we listen.

However, our uncircumcised heart (referring to our senses eyes, ears and hearts mind/soul) were "OPENED" to God's grace. I believe that Paul's scripture states:

"We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Epistle to the Colossians

Are there levels to our relationship? (see Exodus, Moses see God face to face, Exodus 33:13-14) and then in, Exodus 33:18, Moses wants to see God's glory.

***********

[Marta]

Hmmm... would you mind expanding this thought a touch?

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Adam sinning, his nature became guilty and corrupted, and so came to his children. Thus in him all have sinned. And death is by sin; for death is the wages of sin. Then entered all that misery which is the due desert of sin; temporal, spiritual, eternal death.


If we are blind, spiritually, and we are dead to faith - how can it be revealed to us? Remember the scriptural passage

[tabibito]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29

If we are blind, spiritually, and we are dead to faith - how can it be revealed to us? Remember the scriptural passage

Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear. "Faith comes by hearing" and beyond that is the statement 1 Cor 12:9 that "To each is given the manifestation of the spirit to advantage .... to another faith in that same Spirit" ... and moreover ... Paul's declaration 1 Cor 2:4-5faith would not be based on human wisdom but on "

In sum, the believer receives (to pass the benefit on) the authorities that are needed to open the eyes and unblock the ears of those living in darkness. It is the intention that the believers' words and actions - underpinned by the conferred authority through the Holy Spirit - make God manifest in the world and to the unbelieving.

[Marta]

[QUOTE]

Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29

Tabibito - I not referring on the inheritance of sin from Adam. What I am referring to is our own sins that have been accrued/occurred on our own merit.

I love this statement that Paul wrote in Colossians - this is actually my favorite, so far. You know, I re-read most of this chapter and others but this has got to be my favorite!

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

and, noting this verse

Colossians 1:21

[Marta]

[QUOTE]

Nothing in that makes any statement that a person dies because of Adam's sin - in fact, the claim that a person dies because he inherited sin from anyone is denied by the Bible itself - stated to be a direct quote from God himself. It is death that is inherited, not sin.

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." Jer 31:29-30 with a full exposition given at Ezek 18:1-29

Romans 5:12-21New Living Translation (NLT)

Adam and Christ Contrasted

12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. , so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear. "Faith comes by hearing" and beyond that is the statement 1 Cor 12:9 that "To each is given the manifestation of the spirit to advantage .... to another faith in that same Spirit" ... and moreover ... Paul's declaration 1 Cor 2:4-5faith would not be based on human wisdom but on "

In sum, the believer receives (to pass the benefit on) the authorities that are needed to open the eyes and unblock the ears of those living in darkness. It is the intention that the believers' words and actions - underpinned by the conferred authority through the Holy Spirit - make God manifest in the world and to the unbelieving.

Not necessarily:But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:Not everyone who hears the word of God acts on it. See Ezekiel 12:1-3 and Isaiah 6
Quote from another source:

...everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; (Joel 2:32a NIV)

another source: What stirs the soul into listening or hearing or believing? Again, pointing toward the beginning of the bible - scripture,

Genesis 2:7: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]"

for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: the things God has prepared for those who love him

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

Even when we are brought to God's salvation, we still need to nourish that spirit within us to grow continually - we have been brought into Christ and to have faith, as all our senses have been opened1 Corinthians 3:2 Even the apostles had asked Jesus to increase their faith- and Jesus replied back, "But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by when he is come from the field, 'Go and sit down to meat.'? And will he not rather say unto him, 'Make ready so that I can sup,and gird yourself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drank. And afterward you shall eat and drink.' Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done that which is our duty to do.'" (Luke 17:5-10)

[tabibito]

I did not intend "Sight and hearing come to the blind and deaf through those who see and hear." to be taken as an inevitable outcome (though on re-reading, I see that it can easily be so interpreted.)

What I had in mind was τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος "this is the work of God so that you may・can have believed on the one that he sent"

As you have pointed out, no action will be of any effect when people block their ears and shut their eyes.