AiG: Top 10 Myths About Creation

[mostlyharmless]

The glory, ALL of it, goes to God --- that's Scripture 101. These people want to make
men into a 'demi-god' ... a 'Saint'. That's Heresy & Cults 101.

Look Jorge, its just like every other action of God. Does God receive less glory if someone is healed through the actions of a doctor? Does God receive less glory because he used natural selection to generate the human race?

Acknowledging the method by which something occurred in no way diminishes God's glory as the method was His choice. Theologically this is called the divine economy. Your fundamental misunderstanding of divine activity is preventing you from understanding both theology and science.

Blessings

[Kelp]

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Professor, what is it that you think I need to learn and what "ridiculous thing" was it that I accused people of?

Jorge

Protestant theology 101, there are many churches in the sense of human gatherings and groups for purposes of worship and along lines of doctrine, otherwise known as denominations, in other words, the visible church. Baptists, Lutherans, et al. are part of different churches from each other in this sense.

Then there is the Church as it is before God, composed of all true believers. Otherwise known as the invisible church.

Your response to AS implied that he is not aware of this, such an assumption is quite an insult to his intelligence.

[Ansgar Seraph]

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Write all you want .... say all you want. However, you neglect those tiny little
things called FACTS that keep getting in the way of your blathering :

• The next step will be the recognition of a miracle attributed to John Paul, who died in 2005.
• In May 2005, a month after his death, Benedict put John Paul on the fast track by dispensing with Church rules that normally impose a five-year waiting period after a candidate's death before the procedure that leads to sainthood can start.
• The initial phases of a sainthood cause can usually take decades or, in some cases, hundreds of years. In the case of the Polish pope [John Paul], they were completed in less than three years.
• Polls have shown many Catholics believe that John Paul was so special that Benedict should skip the beatification process in his case and move him directly to sainthood.
• On June 2, 2005, exactly two months after the Pope's death and after she and her fellow nuns in her religious community prayed to the late pope for her healing ... [she was miraculously healed].

There's not one thing there that contradicts what the catechism said about the reason for canonizing certain saints.

The glory, ALL of it, goes to God --- that's Scripture 101. These people want to make
men into a 'demi-god' ... a 'Saint'. That's Heresy & Cults 101.

Believe what you want, AS, I'm done here with you.

Jorge, the Church's stance is clear that the Saints (capitalized here because we are all, technically, saints) are the men and women who have shown, by a life of virtuous devotion to Christ, characters and actions that ought to be modeled in one's Christian race. They are believed to intercede with Christ at the throne and His power flows through them in Heaven, as it did on Earth. The Catholic Church has never attributed the miracles of the saints to the saints' own power. It has always been Christ expressing Himself through the Church.

Just know, Jorge, that I couldn't worry less about the state of your soul and your belief in YEC — even though I believe you are very wrong on the matter, I don't believe that a belief if YEC, in itself, is a moral failing. This, however, demonstrates a tearing of the Body, an unwillingness to understand the motives of a large group of Christians and an untoward willingness to marginalize or defame their Christian character. Like I mentioned before, I remember that you have been exposed to abuses of the practice before — but that is no excuse to not learn and understand what is the true intention of canonization and intercessory prayer.

—Sam

[Jorge]

Does God receive less glory if someone is healed through the actions of a doctor?

Yes, if God is not acknowledged as the Healer. What would any doctor be
able to do without the God that gave him life and skill and ................... ?

Does God receive less glory because he used natural selection to generate the human race?

You're switching channels on me. That's alright, I can adjust in midstream ...

The answer to your question is that God could have used natural selection to generate the human race.

HOWEVER --- and this is the part that you people refuse to understand / accept ---
what God Himself revealed to us --- including about His nature and about history ---
does NOT jibe with a god that would have used evolutionary natural selection to
generate the human race.

Let me make it plain : the god that TEs, PCs and OECs worship is NOT the same
God that Scripture plainly reveals. Long ago here on TWeb I wrote something to
explain that when people force-fit evolution and gigayears into Scripture they are
in essence creating god in their own image -- a god that conforms to what they
prefer to believe in. How about them apples?

Acknowledging the method by which something occurred in no way diminishes God's glory as the method was His choice.

Absolutely true AS LONG AS that was, in fact, the method that He chose.
What you people do not wish to comprehend is that you are imposing YOUR
beliefs on God and are, thereby, 'making god in your own image'.

Theologically this is called the divine economy. Your fundamental misunderstanding of divine activity is preventing you from understanding both theology and science.

One day I'm going to start a list of all the things that I don't understand. As per you people
that list is near-infinite. Let's see ... I don't understand theology, nor science, nor evolution,
nor divine activity, nor divine economy, nor philosophy, nor genetics, nor anthropology,
nor history, nor mathematics, nor ................. whew !!! I'll continue later after I get some rest.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Protestant theology 101, there are many churches in the sense of human gatherings and groups for purposes of worship and along lines of doctrine, otherwise known as denominations, in other words, the visible church. Baptists, Lutherans, et al. are part of different churches from each other in this sense.

Then there is the Church as it is before God, composed of all true believers. Otherwise known as the invisible church.

Your response to AS implied that he is not aware of this, such an assumption is quite an insult to his intelligence.

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People around here seem to get insulted at the drop of a hat. That aside ...

So tell me something that I don't already know.

That is precisely why I said that there is ONLY one Church -- all others
are fabrications of men. Sure enough, the Catholic church is, generally
speaking, a heretical cult (or haven't you been paying attention?) towards
the TRUE Church. The Mormon church is another ... so is the Jehova's
Witnesses church ... I'm not prejudiced.

BTW (I was going to let this slide but my spirit isn't allowing me), why do
you point out that I'm insulting his intelligence yet you do not consider that
he may be doing that to me? Is it my charming personality, maybe?

AS is trying to explain to me things that a first-grader in Christian theology
would know. The funny thing is how much people like AS know about the
Christian position yet, at the same time, they will smear Genesis 1-11
like a soiled rag over a toilet -- compromising it as necessary in order to
make their personal views 'fit' into the rest of Scripture.

You wanna post 'corrections'? How about you begin with that ?

Jorge

[Ansgar Seraph]

****************************************************************************

People around here seem to get insulted at the drop of a hat. That aside ...

So tell me something that I don't already know.

That is precisely why I said that there is ONLY one Church -- all others
are fabrications of men. Sure enough, the Catholic church is, generally
speaking, a heretical cult (or haven't you been paying attention?) towards
the TRUE Church. The Mormon church is another ... so is the Jehova's
Witnesses church ... I'm not prejudiced.

BTW (I was going to let this slide but my spirit isn't allowing me), why do
you point out that I'm insulting his intelligence yet you do not consider that
he may be doing that to me? Is it my charming personality, maybe?

No, you demonstrated a lack of understanding in how the Catholic Church professes intercessory prayer and miracles through the Saints. No doctrinally-adherent Catholic would claim that JP2, through his own power, effected a miracle. Your contention that this is the case necessitated a rebuttal. Hopefully, you are only ignorant of the Catholic stance on canonization and intercessory prayer . . . if not ignorant, then you knew one thing to be true (the Catholic position on intercession of the Saints) but stated a contradictory claim as though it were true (that Catholic doctrine treats canonized Saints as "demi-gods" who, by their own power, perform miracles) .

AS is trying to explain to me things that a first-grader in Christian theology
would know. The funny thing is how much people like AS know about the
Christian position yet, at the same time, they will smear Genesis 1-11
like a soiled rag over a toilet -- compromising it as necessary in order to
make their personal views 'fit' into the rest of Scripture.

You wanna post 'corrections'? How about you begin with that ?

If a first-grader in Christian theology would know it, then you should have done a better job presenting it. Like other topics, you preferred to present an inaccurate and caricatured version — handy if you want to label an ancient Christian Church as heretical but also either ignorant or deceitful. I'm assuming ignorance, which is why I pointed you towards the RCC catechism.

Jorge, if you demonstrate that YEC is an accurate depiction of reality, I'll jump ship immediately. But every time there's a discussion to be had wherein we can actually compare the two models (i.e., giraffe evolution/adaptation, vestigial organs, genetic entropy), you whine about getting "honest answers" and scoot away. It's terribly hard to be convinced when you can't maintain (or even begin) an argument for YEC.

"smear Genesis 1-11 like a soiled rag over a toilet" — classy.

Any road, this latest misrepresentation of doctrine and slur against a sister Church has been dealt with and exposed. No need to continue derailing Freezbee's thread.

—Sam

[wattsr1]

Any road, this latest misrepresentation of doctrine and slur ...
—Sam

Jorge and his vodka again?


Regards, Roland

[Ansgar Seraph]

Jorge and his vodka again?


Regards, Roland

You kids and your spirits — a poor teetotaler (and I mean "$23 for a bottle?" poor) wouldn't know

[wattsr1]

You kids and your spirits — a poor teetotaler (and I mean "$23 for a bottle?" poor) wouldn't know

Clearly you have been looking haven't you!

Teetotaler bah!

[Ansgar Seraph]

Clearly you have been looking haven't you!

Teetotaler bah!

You've found me out!

[rogue06]

You've found me out!

And my rum is only for rum cake

[Kelp]

That is precisely why I said that there is ONLY one Church -- all others
are fabrications of men.

Ok, but your response to AS sure SOUNDED like you were assuming that when he said "sister Church" he was somehow claiming that there could be more than one invisible Church. If you really think he "knows so much about the Christian position" then be more careful with your language and don't assume he would make such a "color of the sky" level error.

BTW (I was going to let this slide but my spirit isn't allowing me), why do
you point out that I'm insulting his intelligence yet you do not consider that
he may be doing that to me? Is it my charming personality, maybe?

Like I said, your response to AS sure LOOKED to me like you honestly thought he was making that kind of fundamental error. I assumed you were ignorant rather than being dishonest. Seems now that was a misunderstanding on my part. My bad.