Brainsick

[Scrawly]

Warning: The following content may offend some twebbers. Please do not watch any of the linked videos if you are sensitive to disturbing footage.

I have a bit too much time on my hands as of late (thankfully this won't last, amen?). I was therefore watching silly and sad videos. As I watched the following video (1:55 and onward) it got me thinking about the fate of the mentally ill in relation to judgment and eternal dwelling. Is not the commonly accepted view that those who are mentally incapacitated are essentially given a free-pass into the gates of heaven (based on the merits of Christ's work), so to speak despite not knowing anything intelligible about that saving work?

In light of that view, my question would be: What is the cutoff line? Take for example that Chinese lady in the video. I think it might be safe to assume that preaching the gospel to her would be a rather fruitless endeavor -- she's just not quite sufficiently "there". Perhaps you could tell her that God loves her and Jesus died for her, and I imagine her response would entail laughter of sorts. So, what happens with such an individual -- and the many like her -- who are slightly more "gone" and slightly less "gone". Who among them gets that "free pass" and how do we make that determination? It seems if we make provision for some of the mentally ill, that will entail a high degree of subjective reasoning which naturally leads to a slippery slope and opens the door to all sorts of justifications and rationalizations. Also, where would demonic possession and oppression fit in here? Are any of us so bold as to engage in exorcisms when an individual is exhibiting clear signs of demons according to the biblical model demonstrated in this video, for example?

[Sparko]

I didn't watch it but I think the cutoff is whether they understand right from wrong and are morally culpable

Same as children

[Catholicity]

God is merciful that is all.

[Scrawly]

I didn't watch it but I think the cutoff is whether they understand right from wrong and are morally culpable

What happens if the mental impairment compromises the ability to understand right from wrong? Not a total obliviousness but the mental illness overrides their capability to reason morally -- at times. The basis of judgment at that point seems like it would be very hazy, at best.

Same as children

OK, I apologize in advance if my examples are a bit graphic but I think our theologizing ought not be detached from the gritty reality of life. So let's say we have Jimmy in New York and Sarah in Taiwan. Jimmy has just turned 6 and is going about his day. He stops by the cookie jar in the kitchen to get his daily cookie and suddenly his eyes are opened and he becomes distinctly aware of his internal conscience. He goes off to school and throughout the day does that which he now understands as being morally wrong -- he steals a snack from another student's lunch box. His conscience convicts him but he shrugs it off. The school day ends and he starts to walk home with his friend poking around and laughing with one another. Suddenly a car swerves around the corner and fires bullets at house. Gang war. Jimmy is struck in the neck and falls to the ground clutching his neck, writhing in pain. His eyes well up with tears and he moans in anguish. He's slipping in and out of consciousness and yells through his tears that's he's scared and wants his mommy to rescue him. He dies.

Let's now turn our attention to Sarah in Taiwan. Sarah is four years old and is excited to start her day. She's going to a theme park with her parents. She stops by the cookie jar in the kitchen to get her daily cookie, however it turns out this is her second cookie, and the rules are she only gets one cookie per day. Her parents scold her. They still serve as her "external conscience," reinforcing her memory of what she ought not do. They leave the house and en route to the theme park, a car swerves around the corner. The driver is having a heart attack and driving erratically. Sarah is struck. Her mother is freaking out as she holds her dying child in her arms. Sarah whimpers and struggles to breath her last: "mommy I'm scared, don't let me die". Sarah dies.

Now, in your view, in this scenario, would Jimmy be assigned an eternity in hell whereas Sarah an eternity in heaven (because Jimmy for one day understood right from wrong and therefore morally culpable for his sin)?

[Scrawly]

God is merciful that is all.

Let's take the seemingly possessed woman in the video I linked to. Would a valid extension of mercy in your view be that despite her vileness, that woman is suffering unbelievably, day in and day out. Almost every night she cries herself to sleep. All she has known is suffering. When she dies, if God assigns her to an eternity of torment, then such a God cannot in good conscience be respected much less worshiped? God must be merciful in instances like this, yes?

[Sparko]

scrawly. as Cath said, God is merciful. He is also good and just. He will do what is right. Don't try to second guess him, or worry that he won't do the right thing. We don't have to figure out all the parameters, that isn't our job. We don't save or decide who gets saved. Our job is to share the gospel and to love our neighbors, to teach right from wrong. The rest is up to God. He is not going to send anyone to hell who does not deserve it. God doesn't make mistakes. He isn't going to send someone to hell for taking a cookie.

[Cow Poke]

What happens if the mental impairment compromises the ability to understand right from wrong? Not a total obliviousness but the mental illness overrides their capability to reason morally -- at times. The basis of judgment at that point seems like it would be very hazy, at best.



OK, I apologize in advance if my examples are a bit graphic but I think our theologizing ought not be detached from the gritty reality of life. So let's say we have Jimmy in New York and Sarah in Taiwan. Jimmy has just turned 6 and is going about his day. He stops by the cookie jar in the kitchen to get his daily cookie and suddenly his eyes are opened and he becomes distinctly aware of his internal conscience. He goes off to school and throughout the day does that which he now understands as being morally wrong -- he steals a snack from another student's lunch box. His conscience convicts him but he shrugs it off. The school day ends and he starts to walk home with his friend poking around and laughing with one another. Suddenly a car swerves around the corner and fires bullets at house. Gang war. Jimmy is struck in the neck and falls to the ground clutching his neck, writhing in pain. His eyes well up with tears and he moans in anguish. He's slipping in and out of consciousness and yells through his tears that's he's scared and wants his mommy to rescue him. He dies.

Let's now turn our attention to Sarah in Taiwan. Sarah is four years old and is excited to start her day. She's going to a theme park with her parents. She stops by the cookie jar in the kitchen to get her daily cookie, however it turns out this is her second cookie, and the rules are she only gets one cookie per day. Her parents scold her. They still serve as her "external conscience," reinforcing her memory of what she ought not do. They leave the house and en route to the theme park, a car swerves around the corner. The driver is having a heart attack and driving erratically. Sarah is struck. Her mother is freaking out as she holds her dying child in her arms. Sarah whimpers and struggles to breath her last: "mommy I'm scared, don't let me die". Sarah dies.

Now, in your view, in this scenario, would Jimmy be assigned an eternity in hell whereas Sarah an eternity in heaven (because Jimmy for one day understood right from wrong and therefore morally culpable for his sin)?

This makes me think of the little discourse between Jesus and Peter, when Peter was asking about the fate of somebody else:

“If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

[Sparko]

This makes me think of the little discourse between Jesus and Peter, when Peter was asking about the fate of somebody else:

“If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

sounds like scrawly thinks God is like an evil genie, looking for loopholes to send people to hell.

[Cow Poke]

sounds like scrawly thinks God is like an evil genie, looking for loopholes to send people to hell.

I think he's a good guy with maybe a little too much time on his hands.

[Thoughtful Monk]

God is merciful that is all.

I am still working in through. I am coming to a position that I am saved because God extended mercy with love as His motivation. We may be over emphasizing God's love and not saying enough about His mercy.

[Scrawly]

I think he's a good guy

I have my doubts at times.

with maybe a little too much time on his hands.

Bingo.

[robrecht]

I thought Scrawly, rather than second guessing God's judgment, might have been trying to figure out what is our responsibility for preaching the gospel and to whom. (Perhaps he is also trying to figure out who should be exorcised.) I think our responsibility is to preach the gospel to all, 'though in the tradition of St Francis, I think our preaching is especially evident in how we live our lives, both in communion with each other in brotherly love, and in how we treat those who are less fortunate than us, eg, the poor, lepers, etc. In this perspective, difficult cases are not so difficult. We have a responsibility for taking care of others, regardless of what their needs are. If they are mentally ill, they have great needs, regardless of whether they are disposed to a discussion of soteriology. With respect to exorcisms, I leave that to the those who are given this specific authority in the church, who take responsibility for first making an assessment of mental health.

[Obsidian]

One sin will condemn. However, if the kids are in a position to where they are about to get saved, God is perfectly capable of preserving them to allow that to happen. God looks out for people who are sincerely trying to do the right thing.

Acts 10:3-6
He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

[Scrawly]

One sin will condemn.

So do you believe there will be a lot of 10ish year old kids in eternal torment? Or do you believe they will somehow be transformed into adults?

However, if the kids are in a position to where they are about to get saved God is perfectly capable of preserving them to allow that to happen.

So God will preserve the lives of those that he foreknows will place their faith in Him?

God looks out for people who are sincerely trying to do the right thing.

Acts 10:3-6
He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one..”

How would you reconcile Acts 10:3-6 with Romans 3:10-12?

[Obsidian]

Seeking God in the Bible refers to living a sanctified life after salvation (as in Hebrews 11:6, where seeking is said to be rewarded, with comparisons to various righteous figures in history). It is not the same as what we today call an agnostic "seeker," who is just looking into whether Christianity is true. When the Bible says that no one seeks God, it is just saying that everyone lives a sinful life.

Yes, many ten-year-olds go to hell, the same as people of other ages. However, I do think that people are punished with varying degrees of severity.