Islam and liberty

[barnasha]

I say that the "plenty of Muslims" to which you refer are either grossly ignorant or deliberate liars when it comes to owning up to the fact that Islam places a whole lot more emphasis upon hatred of all who oppose Islam than it does upon love of everyone. After all, the texts that settle all disputes among Muslims clearly do a lot more to inspire Muslims to lie about their outrageous, ridiculous, and blasphemous ideology when they have little or no military/political might than it does anything to the contrary.

frankly I don't think anyone with a shred of intellectual dignity is going to blindly agree with your opinions about islam. but we can't keep you from airing it here.

[Dan Zebiri]

Still waiting for barnasha to provide some sort of meaningful response to the following :-

The real and true rabble-rouser here, barnasha, is the quran - for instance in sura at-tauba (9).

Why does the quran need to deneigrate other people?? JUST answer that question without any more of your senseless waffling, barney!

Now, just Why don't you REALLY learn to stick to the facts, and give a thoughtful, intelligent reply to what I raised about the LIBEL of the quran against Non-Muslims?

That the quran denigrates non-muslims and maligns them with bigoted labels that is totally UNCALLED FOR? Like :-

Like the ones found here : Sura at-tauba v. 28 claims :

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

This means that all the non-muslim pagans are najasun - they are ALL FILTH. This is a MOST BIGOTED Statement. And you muslims cannot prove otherwise..(can you, barnasha..? Try...)

And likewise sura 9/29 claims :

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The muslims MUST ALWAYS fight, Kill and attack the people of the Book! That is the Jews and the Christians-Thats according to the teaching of THIS verse! (can you explain otherwise, muslims?)

WHY? What is their 'crime'??! Nothing much - ONLY Unbelief in islam and muhammad the founder of islam!

These people of the Book were not fighting or attacking the muslims AT ALL, WERE THEY???!?

Their 'sin' or 'crime' was only to CHOOSE to not follow islam. and to not believe in islam. THAT is enough for muslims to attack them and take them as the enemy.

Thus, islam is indeed the most BIGOTED religion in the world, too.

As all this is taught and commanded in the quran itself. WHY oh why does the quran need to malign and denigrate the non-muslims as 'najasoon' / najis' ie. as 'faeces'??

This is 20 percent of the world, mocking, insulting and leering at the Other 80 percent of the world and labelling them as 'najis'! Ie.as human and animal refuse!!

WHY does islam and the quran, muhamad & Allah need to demean, insult and denigrate non-muslim people in that way?

If THAT is not the bigotry of islam, then show us what really is!

Do STICK TO THE POINT, islamophile barnasha! And do all of us here a favor, explain to all here INTELLIGENTLY, that the above ayats (verses) from your quran are NOT Bigotry. And try not to deflect away from this by talking/writing about ME, instead..

Wasallaam.

[barnasha]

where did you learn the Quran so incorrectly.. al qaeda university? did you bother to read the whole chapter of the verses you have totally skewed there?

why have you ignored all the verses in the quran that can be used to put those in context, are you ... gasp... deliberately trying to make it look bad?

[CuriousBob]

frankly I don't think anyone with a shred of intellectual dignity is going to blindly agree with your opinions about islam. but we can't keep you from airing it here.

Frankly, every reasonable person who has nothing to fear in telling the truth about Islam would say that you make empty blanket statements like that because that is the only way you know how to answer statements like the ones that are made by those of us who are not afraid to tell the awful truth and Islam; on the ones who are not afraid to snitch on the lunatics (or criminals) who follow the Islamic agenda most devoutly!

[barnasha]

your opinion is noted.

[CuriousBob]

frankly I don't think anyone with a shred of intellectual dignity is going to blindly agree with your opinions about islam. but we can't keep you from airing it here.

Who are you to lecture us on intellectual dignity? What do you even know about it? Either you have never had any of it or you have completely lost it and I am sure every true intellectual would agree with me on this point.

You don't even know how to discuss your obviously blind faith with even the smallest amount of intellectual integrity. Heck! The obviousness of this fact doesn't even seem to fizz on you as you seem completely oblivious to it.

Like I said before, the ways in which you participate in discussions about your faith, especially in discussions where you are asked to defend its integrity, are primarily the ways in which emotionally disturbed children and lunatics participate in or handle such discussions. It is becoming more and more apparent to me and everyone else who can tell the difference between an emotionally disturbed child and a reasonable / responsible adult or between a person who belongs in a mental asylum and a normal person that the more you speak the more you convince us that you have no intellectual integrity. You don't speak like one who knows how to participate in any meaningful discussion about your obviously blind faith in Islam and its lone profiteering prophet.

[barnasha]

I have pretty thick skin - dont waste time attacking me

[Dan Zebiri]

The real and true rabble-rouser here, barnasha, is the quran - for instance in sura at-tauba (9).

Why does the quran need to denigrate other people?? JUST answer that question without any more of your senseless waffling, barney! Al-qaeda and all the terrorists of islam take their inspiration from such quranic discriminatory verses! Just answer this Question, and stop your nonsensical wafflings..!

Now, just Why don't you REALLY learn to stick to the facts, and give a thoughtful, intelligent reply to what I raised about the LIBEL of the quran against Non-Muslims? The context TOTALLY supports the statement that all the non-muslims are indeed 'najasoon' - DUNG.

That the quran denigrates non-muslims and maligns them with bigoted labels that is totally UNCALLED FOR? Like :-

Like the ones found here : Sura at-tauba v. 28 claims :

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

This means that all the non-muslim pagans are najasun - they are ALL FILTH. This is a MOST BIGOTED Statement. And you muslims cannot prove otherwise..(can you, barnasha..? Try...)

And likewise sura 9/29 claims :

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The muslims MUST ALWAYS fight, Kill and attack the people of the Book! That is the Jews and the Christians-Thats according to the teaching of THIS verse! (can you explain otherwise, muslims?)

WHY? What is their 'crime'??! Nothing much - ONLY Unbelief in islam and muhammad the founder of islam!

These people of the Book were not fighting or attacking the muslims AT ALL, WERE THEY???!?

Their 'sin' or 'crime' was only to CHOOSE to not follow islam. and to not believe in islam. THAT is enough for muslims to attack them and take them as the enemy.

Thus, islam is indeed the most BIGOTED religion in the world, too.

As all this is taught and commanded in the quran itself. WHY oh why does the quran need to malign and denigrate the non-muslims as 'najasoon' / najis' ie. as 'faeces'??

This is 20 percent of the world, mocking, insulting and leering at the Other 80 percent of the world and labelling them as 'najis'! Ie.as human and animal refuse!!

WHY does islam and the quran, muhamad & Allah need to demean, insult and denigrate non-muslim people in that way?

If THAT is not the bigotry of islam, then show us what really is!

Do STICK TO THE POINT, islamophile barnasha! And do all of us here a favor, explain to all here INTELLIGENTLY, that the above ayats (verses) from your quran are NOT Bigotry. And try not to deflect away from this by talking/writing about ME, instead..

Wasallaam.

where did you learn the Quran so incorrectly.. al qaeda university? did you bother to read the whole chapter of the verses you have totally skewed there?

why have you ignored all the verses in the quran that can be used to put those in context, are you ... gasp... deliberately trying to make it look bad?

[Imam ahmad]

The real and true rabble-rouser here, barnasha, is the quran - for instance in sura at-tauba (9).

Dan do something for me, give me a summary of Surahtul Taubah.

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

This means that all the non-muslim pagans are najasun - they are ALL FILTH. This is a MOST BIGOTED Statement. And you muslims cannot prove otherwise..(can you, barnasha..? Try...)

I fail to see the problem with the verse you are quoting, you fail to understand that Islam is a way of life, not only spiritually, but physically. But beyond that the pagans held practices, and beliefs that were unclean, they slaughtered to idols and other dieties, so they were not allowed to enter the Kabah.. So I"m wondering what's the problem. Would you allow a Hindu to burn incense to Vishnu in your church? Of course not!

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The muslims MUST ALWAYS fight, Kill and attack the people of the Book! That is the Jews and the Christians-Thats according to the teaching of THIS verse! (can you explain otherwise, muslims?)

Dan, let's be real what about that verse made you think Muslims must always fight others. The verse you are quoting is referring to a particular time in Islamic history, where freedom of religion was being abused even by the people of the book, so the order is not to fight them becaus they believe differently, but because they keep people from the truth, and restrict their freedom to come to Islam if people choose to.

[beanfarmer]

would that include anyone who would claim Islam is wrong and you are going to hell if you follow it? What if you preached to a Muslim or made him aware of problems in the Qu'ran? Many Muslims use this text to justify persecuting Christians and Baha'is like the ones in ethiopia where more than 12 churches have been burned and 10,000 had to flee their homes because someone desicrated a Qu'ran. Yet I can not get even one Muslim to do anything about it but to condemn it and say they are not following Islam but they will not so much as pick up a pen and write a letter to a government or a mosque to protest this violence. What if thousands of letters were written by peace loving Muslims to each mosque in the distric where the violence occured? Would that not at least put a dent in it? May the peace that passes all understanding be yours

[Dan Zebiri]

No, not at all, barnasha! I am NOT trying to make islam or the quran to look 'bad'..! Like I already have said many times over...!

Verses like those pointed out, themselves are what make islam and the quran look extremely BAD!

And Nope, it is not my 'interpretation' of them that make islam and the quran, bad.

You ask me to look at the so-called other verses - presumably you imply the 'peaceful verses' of your quran, right?!

Well, maybe you don't already know, or you deliberately feign ignorance about the facts! The ONE "Sword verse" - sura at taubah 9, has already 'abrogated - ie.CANCELED OUT all the peaceful verses' in the quran!

This is CONFIRMED by the renowned and accepted ulemas (islamic scholars) of orthodox islam. Like as-Suyuti, Ibn Arabi and muallim like them!

All the verses which call for peace and forgiveness of the infidel, are all abrogated by other verses which call for war. All religious Muslim scholars attest to this fact

Thus, no one should believe that the Qur’an calls for peace because all these ‘peaceful’ verses are recorded in it. All of them are abrogated as all the Muslim scholars attest. Al-Suyuti says in this respect,

"The order for Muslims to be patient and forgiving was issued when they were few and weak, but when they became strong, they were ordered to fight and the previous verses were abrogated" (al -Zamakh-shari in "al-Kash-shaf" part 3, p. 61).

Ibn ’Arabi said, "The verse of the ‘sword’ -ie.sura 9 verse 5- has abrogated 124 verses" (ibid, p. 69).

Khalifah Abu Bakr 'As-Siddiq' used this and other honorable Ayat (verse or passage) as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its ruling and obligations….

"I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah."

This honorable Ayah was called the Ayah of the Sword (9 v 5), about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said:

"It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term."

Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented: "No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah (ie.sura 9) was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara’ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi’ Al-Akhir."

And no, silly! This is not the 'college of al-qaeda' as you comically assert...it is the quran ITSELF, teaching its followers to do VIOLENCE and cancelling away all the other so-called 'peaceful verses' you and others may try to show us here.

Wassallaam, Dan.

where did you learn the Quran so incorrectly.. al qaeda university? did you bother to read the whole chapter of the verses you have totally skewed there?

why have you ignored all the verses in the quran that can be used to put those in context, are you ... gasp... deliberately trying to make it look bad?

[ahmadj3]

You still haven't answered the fundamental question, where did you get your knowledge of the Qur'aan, and Sunnah. For a Muslim, they just can't pick up a Qur'aan, or a copy of Sahih Bukhaari, and read. They have to learn under the instruction of a much learned individual about tajweed (rules relating to reciting Quraan) sciences of hadith, etc. These are essential, and shouldn't be pushed to the side. So the question is, who did you study under?

[bartdanr]

Did Islam originally spread by conquest (with no purported miraculous confirmation of its truth)? Does the Islamic scripture approve of such things? Does it encourage them?

Is there a good degree of religious freedom in Muslim countries today? If so, how long has this degree of freedom been in place? Was it long after Pennsyvania and Rhode Island granted religious freedom in the seventeenth century?

Hi Individualist,

Good question, but I would also like to ask how religious freedom--or liberty in general--originated in the west. Was it because of Christianity being the dominant religion, in spite of it, or did it have a relatively minor role to play in the formation of religious liberty?

The reason I ask is because I have not found a biblical argument for or against any particular form of human government. Of course, in the Old Testament, it is clear that God wanted His people to form and maintain a theocratic government where religious liberty was non-existent. In the New Testament, however, the principles of forming a human government are not spelled out. The regime that existed at the time--a pagan Empire that spread through conquest and maintained order through brutal oppression of dissent--was to be rendered taxes, honor, and called "God's minister." (Ironically, it also offered far more religious freedom and toleration than Israel was ever supposed to offer).

Both Christians and Muslims will agree that God's rule--regardless of the formation of human government--is hardly a democracy with religious liberty. On the final day, the "toleration" that God currently grants humans to worship whomever and however they please will be rewarded by eternal damnation if one does not choose the right view of God. Likewise, God is an absolute ruler--the Kingdom of Heaven is not a democracy.

The current view in the west that human governments "should" grant religious liberty is not one that reflects the biblical concept of God, nor do I believe that the Bible teaches that it is something that should be actively pursued. Therefore, I think that it may cloud the issue to conflate the cultural value of religious toleration in the west with the teachings of the Bible.

[bartdanr]

would that include anyone who would claim Islam is wrong and you are going to hell if you follow it? What if you preached to a Muslim or made him aware of problems in the Qu'ran? Many Muslims use this text to justify persecuting Christians and Baha'is like the ones in ethiopia where more than 12 churches have been burned and 10,000 had to flee their homes because someone desicrated a Qu'ran. Yet I can not get even one Muslim to do anything about it but to condemn it and say they are not following Islam but they will not so much as pick up a pen and write a letter to a government or a mosque to protest this violence. What if thousands of letters were written by peace loving Muslims to each mosque in the distric where the violence occured? Would that not at least put a dent in it? May the peace that passes all understanding be yours

While the burning of 12 Churches in Ethiopia is wrong and criminal, why did you not mention that late last year eight Mosques were burned to the ground in the same country? Or is just the burning of Churches wrong? And why did you not condemn it? Did you pick up a pen and write a letter to the government or a church to protest this violence?

[beanfarmer]

this is the letter I posted at a etiopian news site and the letter I sent to the ethiopian church. Bet you can not get a Muslim to do the same.

As a fundamentalist Biblical Christian I condemn the burning of mosques as not Christian or Biblical behaviour as it is not turning the other cheek or love those who persecute you. I don't care that much more churches have been burned (1 report put it as 69). Remember romans 12;17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.