Islam and liberty

[bartdanr]

this is the letter I posted at a etiopian news site and the letter I sent to the ethiopian church. Bet you can not get a Muslim to do the same.

As a fundamentalist Biblical Christian I condemn the burning of mosques as not Christian or Biblical behaviour as it is not turning the other cheek or love those who persecute you. I don't care that much more churches have been burned (1 report put it as 69). Remember romans 12;17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I appreciate your consistency, beanfarmer.

I'll take your bet. What news site did you post it to?

[Dan Zebiri]

Mashalllah! ya ahmadj...can't you even READ!

The teachers and scholars of islam who are my teachers, include the names I've already given above...!

As-suyuti, ibn arabi, the kalifah Abu bakr himself...etc etc! All renowned and reputable muallim.Read the comments from such islamic authorities yourself and go figure...just Don't pretend they did not say or teach such things! You then contradict yourself and your own sources - big time.

You still haven't answered the fundamental question, where did you get your knowledge of the Qur'aan, and Sunnah. For a Muslim, they just can't pick up a Qur'aan, or a copy of Sahih Bukhaari, and read. They have to learn under the instruction of a much learned individual about tajweed (rules relating to reciting Quraan) sciences of hadith, etc. These are essential, and shouldn't be pushed to the side. So the question is, who did you study under?

[ahmadj3]

LOL, I think you understood what I said, just a little bit. What I meant was did you have a personal shiekh, who's alive today, not just muallim from the past. No doubt it's good, heck I applaud you for reading suyuti, ibn arabi, etc. It shows me you are actually trying to seek knowledge.

[beanfarmer]

Why don't you ask the Muslims you are talking to like Amagj? I don't remember the news site and I can not find it now but when I have asked Muslims to write a letter to protest an attrocity not one has said he would do it and I have tried multiple times.

[bartdanr]

Why don't you ask the Muslims you are talking to like Amagj? I don't remember the news site and I can not find it now but when I have asked Muslims to write a letter to protest an attrocity not one has said he would do it and I have tried multiple times.

What about these protests? Do they not count? Why or why jot?

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam...tegories/C167/

http://revjimsutter.blogspot.com/200...terrorism.html

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Amagi, can you also take up beanfarmer's challenge? Have you or will you know protest terrorism?

[Dan Zebiri]

And according to you, also another hardly any level-headed poster, the best way to avoid responding intelligently is to express distraction. Instead of attacking me or my person again and again, try to address my points that I reproduce for you, below:

Sura at-tauba v. 28 claims :

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

This means that all the non-muslim pagans are najasun - they are ALL FILTH. This is a MOST BIGOTED Statement. And you muslims cannot prove otherwise.

And likewise sura 9/29 claims :

Fight (actually 'kill': q-t-l) those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The muslims MUST ALWAYS fight, Kill and attack the people of the Book! That is the Jews and the Christians.

WHY? What is their 'crime'??! Nothing much - ONLY Unbelief in islam and muhammad the founder of islam!

These people of the Book were not fighting or attacking the muslims AT ALL, WERE THEY???!?

Their 'sin' or 'crime' was only to CHOOSE to not follow islam. to not believe in islam. THAT is enough for muslims to attack them and take them as the enemy.

Address your quranic agenda manifested by its own words above. Rather than by putting me in your ridiculous 'categories'. Just try to answer intelligently, my questions and points raised. Or has your islamophilic stupor made you drunk already...

Dan.

According to you, hardly a level-headed commentator. I put you in that category along with the extremist muslim preachers... people who have their own agendas and use religion to further it.

[beanfarmer]

Muslims are quick to say they are against terrorism but they will not do anything about it including writing a letter and I bet not one of the sites so much as wrote a letter.

[ahmadj3]

As a Muslim, I'm very much against terrorism. I've written letters, spoken at my kids schools, and organized functions between mosques, and church groups in helping to come to a better understanding between one another. I agree with you, though more Muslim organizations, and communities need to do more to show the public that they do disassociate themselves from 'Islamic' terror groups, and their supporters.

[bartdanr]

Muslims are quick to say they are against terrorism but they will not do anything about it including writing a letter and I bet not one of the sites so much as wrote a letter.

Beanfarmer, if you had looked at the links, you will see that many of these items were public press releases, some of which were published in major newspapers and published in other major media outlets. Many of them WERE letters. And as Ahmadj wrote, he personally has done the same, and more.

In addition, at least 1/3 of the terrorist plots attempted by Muslims were thwarted directly due to tips from the Muslim community itself.

[beanfarmer]

As a Muslim, I'm very much against terrorism. I've written letters, spoken at my kids schools, and organized functions between mosques, and church groups in helping to come to a better understanding between one another. I agree with you, though more Muslim organizations, and communities need to do more to show the public that they do disassociate themselves from 'Islamic' terror groups, and their supporters.

Who did you write letters to Ahmadj? Would you write a letter ethiopian mosques who's members burned the churches like I did to the ethiopian church? Or how about to egypt where the coptics are not allowed building permits if the Muslim neighbors object?

[ahmadj3]

I think I did I hear something about that, but yes If I had a mailing address to an ethiopian mosque I would write a letter. I've written letters to Saudi Mosques, I have written several shiekhs in Egypt that visited the here on invitation from me, and members of the Shura board at our Masjid in Amarillo, Tx.

[bartdanr]

Who did you write letters to Ahmadj? Would you write a letter ethiopian mosques who's members burned the churches like I did to the ethiopian church? Or how about to egypt where the coptics are not allowed building permits if the Muslim neighbors object?

So in other words, beanfarmer, speaking to kids at schools and organizing events between Churches don't count, and writing letters don't count, unless it's directly to an Ethiopian newspaper and an Ethiopian Mosque?

And did you write a letter to the Ethiopian Church because you felt as if it was responsible for the burning of the Mosques? Why did you feel that they were responsible (or not)? Is it necessary to write letters to every event that may or may not involve Christians committing acts of violence?

[Dan Zebiri]

What you really need to ask, bart, IS WHY the quran and sunna of muhamad the founder of islam, teache, command and enjoin violence and forcefulness upon its detractors and on the non-muslims.

Only Then you can you learn the true reasons why islam is such an intolerant ideology and teaching since Day 1 right until this day and age!

Good luck in your quest..;-)

[beanfarmer]

Bartdanr,


I am for peace. Why do you mock me? Ahmadj is the first Muslim I met that was willing to write a letter so he is for peace too. I have asked several and all I get is excuses. One told me that she did not want to get singled out. She did not explain what she meant by that. I have had Muslims call my house and threaten to bomb me for trying to prevent them from going to hell. I did it out of love for Muslims. I don't know what there motivation was but it was not love. Muslims have insulted me and banned me from 2 sites though I never insult them intentionally though some have told me to suggest Jesus is God is an insult. Ahmadj, write a email to this Email:Embassy@egyptembassy.net and cc me atbeanfarm@hughes.net but don't include the at before beanfarm I wrote it that way to foil spambots. Tell them there is no compulsion in Islam so let the Coptics build churches even if the neighbors don't like it like we did at the ground zero mosque which is no where near ground zero which many have complained about, myself not included.

[bartdanr]

Bartdanr,


I am for peace. Why do you mock me?

Maybe statements like "bet you cannot do a Muslim to do the same" made me think that you were arrogantly saying you were morally superior. That is quite mock-worthy, in my book. It perhaps isn't the best Christian witness for me to mock others, but nothing gets me more riled up than a prideful lack of humility. If I simply misinterpreted your words, I am sorry.

Ahmadj is the first Muslim I met that was willing to write a letter so he is for peace too. I have asked several and all I get is excuses. One told me that she did not want to get singled out. She did not explain what she meant by that. I have had Muslims call my house and threaten to bomb me for trying to prevent them from going to hell. I did it out of love for Muslims. I don't know what there motivation was but it was not love. Muslims have insulted me and banned me from 2 sites though I never insult them intentionally though some have told me to suggest Jesus is God is an insult.

I take Internet claims with a grain of salt. Everyone here is an ex Navy SEAL, a supermodel and/or has a best friend that is an astronaut. You must understand that claims of such threats are easy to make...and they really don't add to an argument. Let's just stick to verifiable facts. What I posted are public statements by individual Muslims and groups of Muslims decrying terrorism publicly.

And actually, if you don't understand how suggesting that God was incarnate in Jesus Christ could be offensive to Muslims, then perhaps you don't really understand Islam very well. Try to think of how you'd feel if someone suggested that some nice golden statue was really God, and you'll go to Hell if you don't believe it. Muslims feel the same way about suggesting what they think of as a human being as God incarnate.

Ahmadj, write a email to this Email:Embassy@egyptembassy.net and cc me atbeanfarm@hughes.net but don't include the at before beanfarm I wrote it that way to foil spambots.


Tell them there is no compulsion in Islam so let the Coptics build churches even if the neighbors don't like it like we did at the ground zero mosque which is no where near ground zero which many have complained about, myself not included.

I'm glad you aren't against the so-called ground zero mosque...it is incredibly hypocritical of those who believe in religious liberty to deny it to others. But the fight is not just there, it's also in Tennessee and California where Mosques are being resisted.