Can one argue his/her way to a knowledge of God?

[OtherCheek]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

[Rainbow Brite]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

God works through people. Sometimes they inspire me to realize I am wrong and when I admit it then I feel confirmation by the Spirit.

[jo7241974]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. People can argue for the existence of God with the same rigor people can argue against the existence of God. Without intervention from God through the witness of the Holy Spirit, the arguments for or against are only speculations of the human mind.

God bless,

jo

[shunyadragon]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

There are many traditional theists who believe logic being a gift from God, may be used to argue effectively to prove God's existence.

[Soyeong]

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

While gaining knowledge of God is experiential and can't be gained through argument, argument is still helpful in bringing people to a position where they are receptive towards God and gaining this knowledge.

[jo7241974]

While gaining knowledge of God is experiential and can't be gained through argument, argument is still helpful in bringing people to a position where they are receptive towards God and gaining this knowledge.

I agree. Hence, we are asked to share the Gospel to give everyone an opportunity to hear about Him. Of course, once we do receive that knowledge from God, it results in the desire to share the news.

God bless,

jo

[OtherCheek]

There are many traditional theists who believe logic being a gift from God, may be used to argue effectively to prove God's existence.

The problem with logic, is that it is premised on imperfect suppositions. The Premise must be absolutely true, before logic is useful.

[eudyptes]

The problem with logic, is that it is premised on imperfect suppositions. The Premise must be absolutely true, before logic is useful.

So...therefore...your statement above is false.....(using your logic about logic)

[OtherCheek]

So...therefore...your statement above is false.....(using your logic about logic)

If you are God, then I suppose you can have perfect suppositions every time.

[Vivian]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

Hi Other Cheek -

There has been great divergence among the masses regarding the purpose of 'argumentation' within spirituality, specifically the Judaic/Christian spiritual tradition.

The question is against whom are we striving in our debates?

In true spiritual traditions, argumentation or debate/discussion/discourse - intellectual striving -does not occur between men, but between man and God. The purpose not being to prove our ideas to other men, but in our striving with our ideas about God, with God, He expands our awareness, giving us His wisdom and understanding.

In the tradition I participate in we call this kind of debate contemplation - more of an inner debate within ourselves, which invites in God, when sanctified. Surely you have experienced it - an Aha! moment, when the Holy Spirit takes your spiritual thoughts to a whole knew level?

Mature practitioners - those who have undergone some level of purification so that their egoic I is trained to not combat with others over ideas - can join together in this contemplation, making it a group contemplation or discourse, inviting in Christ to expand the group's understanding and awareness, through each sanctified individual.

Where two or more are gathered in my Name, there I will be also.

Now when two or more are gathered to argue, to prove their own ideas right and others wrong, then a different presence is invited, for such dialog is in the name of a lesser god.

So to answer your question, when our argument is done in the Name (or Power/Attributes) of God Most High, focusing inwardly, 'arguing' or striving with God, it will indeed result in a greater knowledge and awareness of God.

This principle, especially within a collective or a two or more gathering, is recorded as a witness for all in the written Judaic oral tradition. We find in these writings holy men sharing their inner arguments with God with one another, and in so doing their knowledge of God, or His Holy Scripture, being elevated collectively.

Shalom!

Viv

[jo7241974]

Hi Other Cheek -

There has been great divergence among the masses regarding the purpose of 'argumentation' within spirituality, specifically the Judaic/Christian spiritual tradition.

The question is against whom are we striving in our debates?

In true spiritual traditions, argumentation or debate/discussion/discourse - intellectual striving -does not occur between men, but between man and God. The purpose not being to prove our ideas to other men, but in our striving with our ideas about God, with God, He expands our awareness, giving us His wisdom and understanding.

In the tradition I participate in we call this kind of debate contemplation - more of an inner debate within ourselves, which invites in God, when sanctified. Surely you have experienced it - an Aha! moment, when the Holy Spirit takes your spiritual thoughts to a whole knew level?

Mature practitioners - those who have undergone some level of purification so that their egoic I is trained to not combat with others over ideas - can join together in this contemplation, making it a group contemplation or discourse, inviting in Christ to expand the group's understanding and awareness, through each sanctified individual.

Where two or more are gathered in my Name, there I will be also.

Now when two or more are gathered to argue, to prove their own ideas right and others wrong, then a different presence is invited, for such dialog is in the name of a lesser god.

So to answer your question, when our argument is done in the Name (or Power/Attributes) of God Most High, focusing inwardly, 'arguing' or striving with God, it will indeed result in a greater knowledge and awareness of God.

This principle, especially within a collective or a two or more gathering, is recorded as a witness for all in the written Judaic oral tradition. We find in these writings holy men sharing their inner arguments with God with one another, and in so doing their knowledge of God, or His Holy Scripture, being elevated collectively.

Shalom!

Viv

Hi Viv,

As usual, you bring something useful to the table. I don't know if I can explain this clearly; but I will try. With regard to the debates concerning scripture, the Holy Spirit, knowledge of God, pretty much anything to do with God, which are held here on Tweb and other similar sites: They are nothing like the meetings and/or gatherings we have either in Church or in groups from Church. Meetings with other Church members, or individuals like you or Eeset for instance, are always edifying. Its like we start off from a different place altogether because our understanding comes from our spirits rather than our heads. Therefore, we end up someplace different --- better, than where we started from.

Here on these forums, however, there seems to be an entirely different mindset on how to even approach God. Rather than from a spiritual level, everything seems to be centered on secular understanding. People are dissecting words and meanings of words. They are focused on correctness, and if they have a better argument or not. In fact, it seems they are more bent on arguing about what they think is being said, rather than allowing what is being said to help them to grow.

This has been like visiting an alien world. I find myself defending thoughts and understandings that were immediately understood in Church groups. I don't know if I am making any sense. Here, everything is so combative - even when I see posts between individuals who seem to hold the same beliefs. Rather than helping and encouraging and rejoicing; I see division, one-upmanship, etc.

Where we welcome the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us, I see others avoiding an association with the Holy Spirit - which leaves them with the thoughts of man to struggle with.

God bless,

jo

[joel]

I agree. Hence, we are asked to share the Gospel to give everyone an opportunity to hear about Him. Of course, once we do receive that knowledge from God, it results in the desire to share the news.

But unfortunately we cannot possibly share the news because no one can be told what the matrix is?

On the contrary, I agree with those who hold that there exists evidence and we can be rational. C.S. Lewis, rejecting fideism, said that “Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods”. Not holding on to things your reason has never accepted. The N.T. epistles too refer to evidence to back up the claims.

[Sparko]

I would say definitely "no."

A knowledge of God is spiritual and is a gift, and is not something that can be arrived at through argumentation.

Thoughts?

You gain knowledge of God by studying.

[OneSizeFit]

You gain knowledge of God by studying.

How about asking God?

[Sparko]

How about asking God?

and how do you know that it is God answering you instead of your imagination or someone else? Doesn't the bible say that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light (of course if you never studied the bible, they you wouldn't even know that)?

The bible is the standard by which we judge our experiences by to see if they conform to God's word. To do otherwise leads to error. So by studying God's Word, we are grounded in the truth and gain knowledge of God.

2 Tim: 3:15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.