Can one argue his/her way to a knowledge of God?

[jo7241974]

OneSizeFit;2910155]I agree with you to an extent, because what i can confirm, without language, through personal experience from the Spirit is

1/ Jesus is real, God is real,
2/ Forgivness is real, if we forgive others, God will forgive us,
3/ Love, love one another, pray for love, pray for God's love to manifest in you.

Anything beyond that I'm not trying to hear it, whether from LDS proclaiming Joseph Smith, or Orthodox claiming the pope. So as far as OC claiming the the HS testifies to a particular system of belief I dont buy it. I really dont think God judges us based on our doctrine, he knows our minds, minds which are frail, fallible, soft and liable to error. Our hearts are what he judges.[

I bolded the part I agree with and needed no further comment.

The rest: I understand entirely what you are saying; even why you are saying it. I also see no disharmony in your viewpoint versus OC's viewpoint. Before I investigated the LDS Church I never dreamed how much more I could know and learn. So I have seen God from both sides; and was not lost at either time. You just happen to be where you are; and OC happens to be where he is, and it is inevitable that only some of your experiences will be exactly the same. Since we are each on our own journey, I would expect our paths to cross and even join sometimes. It is where our journey is leading us which is important. And you and he (and me) seem to be united in our destination.

God bless!

jo

[OneSizeFit]

I bolded the part I agree with and needed no further comment.

The rest: I understand entirely what you are saying; even why you are saying it. I also see no disharmony in your viewpoint versus OC's viewpoint. Before I investigated the LDS Church I never dreamed how much more I could know and learn. So I have seen God from both sides; and was not lost at either time. You just happen to be where you are; and OC happens to be where he is, and it is inevitable that only some of your experiences will be exactly the same. Since we are each on our own journey, I would expect our paths to cross and even join sometimes. It is where our journey is leading us which is important. And you and he (and me) seem to be united in our destination.

God bless!

jo

When it comes down to it, this is the only an internet message board, I would love to buy a beer for OC!

Also, I am not in the dark about the LDS, I think a quarter of my middle school was LDS, all Samoans, and when they listen to Bob Marley they take it seriously!

[jo7241974]

OneSizeFit;2910173]When it comes down to it, this is the only an internet message board, I would love to buy a beer for OC!

Or at least a root beer!

Also, I am not in the dark about the LDS, I think a quarter of my middle school was LDS, all Samoans, and when they listen to Bob Marley they take it seriously!

Talofa!!!

[OneSizeFit]

Talofa!!!

oh damn ! where you at girl?

[One Bad Pig]

Umm, no. However, that is the way someone with a closed mind would see my post.

Last I checked, Bernie is not LDS. Neither is franktalk or vivian. Doesn't that make them apostate too? Yet it's almost sickening the way you ooh and ahh over their posts on a regular basis. Way to keep arguing for the sake of arguing, though. I wasn't being sarcastic with my reply.

[OtherCheek]

No, the point is that God gave us the power of reason, which we can reliably use. (As opposed to God giving us a (non-)power that is completely unreliable.) And that this power is not man-made.

Obviously one can also choose to misuse (or not use) this power.

Does any person you know have an omniscient ability for reason? Should we not rely upon the One who DOES have omniscience abilities for reason instead of ourselves?

[joel]

Does any person you know have an omniscient ability for reason? Should we not rely upon the One who DOES have omniscience abilities for reason instead of ourselves?

You are right. Don't use your reason at all. Bure othe heren tehe emqljt.

[OtherCheek]

You are right. Don't use your reason at all. Bure othe heren tehe emqljt.

I use my own reason all the time. But I try to always yield my reason to God's wisdom in matters of the Spirit.

Don't you think you should yield to God, who knows infinitely more than your reason can comprehend?

[jo7241974]

Last I checked, Bernie is not LDS. Neither is franktalk or vivian. Doesn't that make them apostate too? Yet it's almost sickening the way you ooh and ahh over their posts on a regular basis. Way to keep arguing for the sake of arguing, though. I wasn't being sarcastic with my reply.

Teachings have become apostate. People are apostate when they knowingly follow apostate teachings after this knowledge is made known to them. There are many, many mainstream Christians who realize that much of orthodoxy is apostate. They came to that knowledge through their own study of church history. That is why so many have either become non-denominational, or they attend a church that comes closest to what they believe....not because they think they have found a church they totally agree with. Their desire is to worship God and follow Him. But they are able to discern in their own minds what they should believe and what they should not believe.

I have never called Christians apostate as a general broad statement. Certain individuals? Yes. In the doctrines of religions? Yes. But the people in general? No. Truth is found in all religions; some more than others. The LDS seek truth wherever they can find it. We have no monolopy on truth. The individuals who have rational conversations with the LDS recognize that we are not the hopelessly misled, praying to the wrong God and believing in the wrong Jesus, non-Christian people that many orthodox Christians think we are. They have found their way to a personal knowledge of God by way of the Holy Spirit; just like us, and they are not depending on man's evidence to base or build their faith on. I see them as being open-minded because this true knowledge of God is evident in what they say and how they reason things out. Generally, they think I am open-minded as well, and for the same reasons. We recognize that Christ is working within us. I am sorry, but this is not something I see as being active in you. I think you have it, but it is being weighted down by what man has taught you.

But we are getting off topic, now.

God bless,

jo

[Bill the Cat]

. I really dont think God judges us based on our doctrine, .

Seriously?

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

That's a doctrine.


1Ti 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is conceited and understands nothing;

[Bill the Cat]

Teachings have become apostate. People are apostate when they knowingly follow apostate teachings after this knowledge is made known to them. There are many, many mainstream Christians who realize that much of orthodoxy is apostate. They came to that knowledge through their own study of church history. That is why so many have either become non-denominational, or they attend a church that comes closest to what they believe....not because they think they have found a church they totally agree with. Their desire is to worship God and follow Him. But they are able to discern in their own minds what they should believe and what they should not believe.

I have never called Christians apostate as a general broad statement. Certain individuals? Yes. In the doctrines of religions? Yes. But the people in general? No. Truth is found in all religions; some more than others. The LDS seek truth wherever they can find it. We have no monolopy on truth. The individuals who have rational conversations with the LDS recognize that we are not the hopelessly misled, praying to the wrong God and believing in the wrong Jesus, non-Christian people that many orthodox Christians think we are. They have found their way to a personal knowledge of God by way of the Holy Spirit; just like us, and they are not depending on man's evidence to base or build their faith on. I see them as being open-minded because this true knowledge of God is evident in what they say and how they reason things out. Generally, they think I am open-minded as well, and for the same reasons. We recognize that Christ is working within us. I am sorry, but this is not something I see as being active in you. I think you have it, but it is being weighted down by what man has taught you.

But we are getting off topic, now.

God bless,

jo

You understand nothing of apostasy then if this is what you believe.

[Bill the Cat]

I use my own reason all the time. But I try to always yield my reason to God's wisdom in matters of the Spirit.

And how do you kinow what you think is actually God's wisdom? It is what man has taught you and what the Mormon church has led you to believe. It makes me laugh when you claim to leave man's precepts behind, but then you cling to the precepts of Mormonism like a little child to it's mother.

[jo7241974]

And how do you kinow what you think is actually God's wisdom? It is what man has taught you and what the Mormon church has led you to believe. It makes me laugh when you claim to leave man's precepts behind, but then you cling to the precepts of Mormonism like a little child to it's mother.

Said the cat who reveres Nicea over the Bible.

[OtherCheek]

And how do you kinow what you think is actually God's wisdom? It is what man has taught you and what the Mormon church has led you to believe. It makes me laugh when you claim to leave man's precepts behind, but then you cling to the precepts of Mormonism like a little child to it's mother.

The ability to discern between what is from God and what is from man, must be cultivated in all of us. And it involves the heart as much or more than the head. It involves tuning into that still small voice, and knowing it from all the other voices around us.

There is no materialistic formula for doing this. The formula is a spiritual one.

[Bill the Cat]

The ability to discern between what is from God and what is from man, must be cultivated in all of us. And it involves the heart as much or more than the head. It involves tuning into that still small voice, and knowing it from all the other voices around us.

There is no materialistic formula for doing this. The formula is a spiritual one.

Jeremiah said we can not trust our hearts