Can one argue his/her way to a knowledge of God?

[Bill the Cat]

Can you find where it says that God speaks to the intellect?

God speaks to our spirit through His Word. Our mind is created by God to be conformed to His. The original question you asked was "Can one argue his/her way to a knowledge of God", to which I say no, however a believer can argue with an unbeliever so that they reject their false notions and come to believe in the truth of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, as Paul made clear. Man can not argue his way to his own salvation.

Big woop. Is that supposed to support the idea that you can argue yourself into a testimony of God?

Your words are loaded and your question is poorly formed. The only way we can recieve salvation is to trust in the truth of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and submit ourselves to His guidance as revealed in His Word.

[OtherCheek]

God speaks to our spirit through His Word. Our mind is created by God to be conformed to His.

Chapter, Verse.

Your words are loaded and your question is poorly formed. The only way we can recieve salvation is to trust in the truth of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and submit ourselves to His guidance as revealed in His Word.

Trust with our mind but not our heart?

[Bill the Cat]

Chapter, Verse.

Are you too lazy to look something up, or do you need to be spoon fed everything?

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Trust with our mind but not our heart?

No. We should use BOTH. However, our OPINION of our heart and mind may not be God's. We may believe completely that our heart is in alignment with God, but be wrong. That was the point Jeremiah was making. We can not simply "trust our hearts" that we are hearing from God because our hearts need to be tried.

Psalm 7:9
O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous;For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds

Psalm 26:2
Examine me, O LORD, and try me; Test my mind and my heart.


If our hearts were always right, then there would be no need to try our hearts.

[OtherCheek]

Are you too lazy to look something up, or do you need to be spoon fed everything?

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

You said:

"Our mind is created by God to be conformed to His."

It rather looks to me from your verse that our minds are conformed to this world to begin with, and God wants to change that. So, how do you know your mind has been transformed?

I can spout verses to:

Ezek. 18: 31
31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye ddie, O house of Israel?

Ezek. 36: 26
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

1 Sam 10:9
9 ¶ And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

Are these new hearts deceitful? Because you seemed to offer a blanket statement that the heart is most deceitful.

No. We should use BOTH. However, our OPINION of our heart and mind may not be God's. We may believe completely that our heart is in alignment with God, but be wrong. That was the point Jeremiah was making. We can not simply "trust our hearts" that we are hearing from God because our hearts need to be tried.

Psalm 7:9
O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous;For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds

Psalm 26:2
Examine me, O LORD, and try me; Test my mind and my heart.

Can we simply trust our minds because we believe they are in line with God's teachings? What makes you sure that your mind isn't deceiving you?


If our hearts were always right, then there would be no need to try our hearts.[/QUOTE]

[Bill the Cat]

You said:

"Our mind is created by God to be conformed to His."


It rather looks to me from your verse that our minds are conformed to this world to begin with, and God wants to change that. So, how do you know your mind has been transformed?

God created our minds to be conformed to His. That is His desire. It is up to us to conform our minds to His. We know His mind through His Word.

I can spout verses to:

Not much better than LDSTrue it seems...

Ezek. 18: 31
31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is God telling Israel to do these things themselves to prove that they can't. It is God who renews the heart and the soul. This has nothing to do with God communicating to the heart or us being able to trust our hearts completely for truth.

Ezek. 36: 26
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

A metaphor for removing the "stone tablets of the Law"

1 Sam 10:9
9 ¶ And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

God changed Saul's heart here. He didn't speak to it, nor did He say that Saul's heart could be trusted to discern truth.

Are these new hearts deceitful?

They CAN be, as seen by Saul's subsequent turn from God.

Because you seemed to offer a blanket statement that the heart is most deceitful.

I said that the heart could not be trusted as it is deceitful. It can align with truth, but it is always succeptable to fail, as it did Saul. The only thing that never fails to be the truth is the Word. We must test everything our heart says against what the Word says, not vice versa.

Can we simply trust our minds because we believe they are in line with God's teachings?

No. What we THINK is irrelivant. What God teaches is the standard.

What makes you sure that your mind isn't deceiving you?

The Word of God says what God's mind is. I follow that, and not just parts.

[OtherCheek]

God created our minds to be conformed to His. That is His desire. It is up to us to conform our minds to His. We know His mind through His Word.

....

They CAN be, as seen by Saul's subsequent turn from God.

So, a heart once turned can be deceitful, but a mind once turned can never be?

Keep digging, Bill. Eventually you will realize that what you need is for someone to throw you a rope instead of stubbornly using your shovel.

[Sparko]

So, a heart once turned can be deceitful, but a mind once turned can never be?

Keep digging, Bill. Eventually you will realize that what you need is for someone to throw you a rope instead of stubbornly using your shovel.

dang. more straw.

He never said that a mind can never be deceitful. He is saying that the word can never change. It is the foundation of our faith. Using your mind and heart are fine but they must be checked against the scripture of the bible. for example, your mind tells you that your heart is correct and your mind also tells you to ignore all evidence against what your heart is telling you. Even when it is clearly shown in scripture that you are wrong.

[Bill the Cat]

So, a heart once turned can be deceitful, but a mind once turned can never be?

No, I never said that. That's why we have to conform our minds and hearts to God's through what He has revealed, His WORD.

Keep digging, Bill. Eventually you will realize that what you need is for someone to throw you a rope instead of stubbornly using your shovel.

Nothing useful to say, huh? Did Jo hack your account?

[OtherCheek]

No, I never said that. That's why we have to conform our minds and hearts to God's through what He has revealed, His WORD.

That explains why you will will never understand Mormonism. Because your heart and mind are far from God.

13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

I asked: What makes you sure that your mind isn't deceiving you?

You said: The Word of God says what God's mind is. I follow that, and not just parts.

How do you know that you are reading the Bible correctly?

[OneSizeFit]

So why arent the words of Jesus good enough for Mormons?

[OtherCheek]

So why arent the words of Jesus good enough for Mormons?

Welcome back OSF. I hope you've had some time to cool off.

[OneSizeFit]

Sorry bruh bruh I was on one that night, not seeing straight if you know what i mean, went to the club later that night, my bad. The ghetto in me came out. Sincerest apologies.

[Bill the Cat]

That explains why you will will never understand Mormonism. Because your heart and mind are far from God.

That's a lie! You have no clue where my mind and my heart are in relation to God. Mormonism is a lie from hell. I understand plenty about it. I understand what your doctrines are and the implications of them because I have the courage to examine them. You don't.

13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Why don't you finish this passage?

15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?"

16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?


Sorrry, but this doesn't describe me.

I asked: What makes you sure that your mind isn't deceiving you?

You said: The Word of God says what God's mind is. I follow that, and not just parts.

How do you know that you are reading the Bible correctly?

Because when it makes a clear statement like:

Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,"And My servant whom I have chosen,So that you may know and believe MeAnd understand that I am He Before Me there was no God formed,And there will be none after Me

I believe exactly what it says. You don't.

[jo7241974]

That explains why you will will never understand Mormonism. Because your heart and mind are far from God.

13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

I asked: What makes you sure that your mind isn't deceiving you?

You said: The Word of God says what God's mind is. I follow that, and not just parts.

How do you know that you are reading the Bible correctly?

He isn't. I've already clearly shown one example.

[Bill the Cat]

He isn't. I've already clearly shown one example.

Where? You think you showed me something from the verse in Jeremiah? You are dead wrong. It was you who ADDED to what Jeremiah was saying.