Can one argue his/her way to a knowledge of God?

[JAYMZ]

Can you find where it says that God speaks to the intellect?




Big woop. Is that supposed to support the idea that you can argue yourself into a testimony of God?

Google this one: "Truth transcends the mind"

OC, whats Apollos doing in Acts 18:28 ? It says that he debated ( argued ) the Jews using scripture. God uses well reasoned arguments to reach peoples hearts.

Just like we try to reason with you guys with scripture so the Spirit has something to work with in your heart and mind.

[OtherCheek]

Sorry bruh bruh I was on one that night, not seeing straight if you know what i mean, went to the club later that night, my bad. The ghetto in me came out. Sincerest apologies.

Thanks, for that OSF. That means a lot to me.

I didn't forward it to anyone cause I kind of figured that you were out of sorts.

[OtherCheek]

That's a lie! You have no clue where my mind and my heart are in relation to God. Mormonism is a lie from hell. I understand plenty about it. I understand what your doctrines are and the implications of them because I have the courage to examine them. You don't.

Why is it that anti-Mormons like you and Sparko always seem so angry and bitter? I don't see "OR FEEL" any evidence from either of you that your hearts OR minds are near to God in any way. I hope that will change over time, however.

[Bill the Cat]

Why is it that anti-Mormons like you and Sparko always seem so angry and bitter?

It's righteous indignation. You insult me, blaspheme my God with those damnable heresies, and claim a superior place to me in the Church of Christ due to your made up "priesthood authority". You darned right I'm gonna respond like I do.

I don't see "OR FEEL" any evidence from either of you that your hearts OR minds are near to God in any way.

I'm sure Paul's and John's opponents didnt either.

I hope that will change over time, however.

Unless you reject those heresies and come out of that church, I seriously doubt you will.

[DesertBerean]

The OP asked if one gains knowledge of God through argumentation.

Jesus taught in the temple and debated with the officials of the day. The apostles debated and wrote to Jews and Greeks. Hebrews was written as a series of rhetoric arguments. To this day our evangelists (yours too!) work hard to persuade people. Why should we think argumentation about God is bad?



As for relying on the Word of God to know God, why shouldn't we? Consider:

Moses commanded the people to know and teach God's law from generation to generation and warned them not to add or take away from the words of the law.
Why did he do that if the Word was not to be relied on for knowledge and instruction about God? Why not just rely on the people loving God and being touched by the Spirit of God to gain knowledge? Incidentally, in those days only certain people received the Spirit of God. Did that mean only THOSE people got to know God?

The law even required kings to write a copy for themselves. Why would they have to do that if all they had to do was listen to their hearts as they sought God? Joshua, one of the more righteous kings, had to hear the law before he realized that the nation did not know God at all; as a result he tore his clothes and took action.

David constantly talked about delighting in God and his words. "Thy word have I hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against thee."

When Nehemiah had the people hear the law, they repented so deeply that Ezra and his priests had to tell them to stop.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out, the believers didn't stop using the word of God for knowledge. The Bereans studied Scriptures to make sure what Paul said was so. Paul said all Scripture was inspired to give instruction, rebuke, correction, and training in righteousness. The NT writers expected that their words would give instruction and impart knowledge of Jesus.

The Word of God is therefore expected to give knowledge of God.


Finally, let me ask you this.

I have here a copy of the BOM copyrighted 1981. Can I count on it being the same now as it was then? Was it revised since that year and if so how many times? Can you tell what was changed and why? We have a history of the ancients quoting from the Scriptures and copies of old Bibles themselves that we can compare our Bibles with and see if our versions are correct; do you have the same kind of information to compare with so you can be sure that what the gold plates said is preserved to this day?

I ask because accurate and consistant information IS key to knowing God. How we may interpret that information may vary, but being sure that the information is accurately preserved seems awfully important IMHO, just as Moses said.

[JAYMZ]

OC, whats Apollos doing in Acts 18:28 ? It says that he debated ( argued ) the Jews using scripture. God uses well reasoned arguments to reach peoples hearts.

Just like we try to reason with you guys with scripture so the Spirit has something to work with in your heart and mind.

Was Apollos wrong for doing this ? OC ?

[OtherCheek]

It's righteous indignation. You insult me, blaspheme my God with those damnable heresies, and claim a superior place to me in the Church of Christ due to your made up "priesthood authority". You darned right I'm gonna respond like I do.

Such emotional outbursts, Bill. Is this your heart showing now?

[jo7241974]

Where? You think you showed me something from the verse in Jeremiah? You are dead wrong. It was you who ADDED to what Jeremiah was saying.

No, you only recognize half of what he said. You have chosen that half in order to make sense of what man has taught you....at least those men you have also chosen to believe. Now you try to force others to believe the same incorrect interpretation by using the same techniques they used to falsely teach you. That would be the way of man....which is the way satan favors because it is so easy to deceive man. Just see the words you use with such hatred against the LDS Church. That hatred is not a manifestation of God.

So...now we find ourselves once more in the position where we have both presented why we believe passages in the Bible should be interpreted the way we interpret them. We either continue in this next phase where you switch to attacking our beliefs out of frustration, or you need to accept that you have been unsuccessful in making us change our minds. You still have not learned that you, a man, will never be able to convince us. We can listen to your presentation, no problem. To your credit you have also suggested we test your interpretation against The Word. Your interpretation has failed this test. Additionally, the truly convincing factor is the Holy Spirit. In my eyes your interpretation has now failed two tests.

Perhaps it is time to move along to the next subject.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

Bill the Cat;2915874]It's righteous indignation. You insult me, blaspheme my God with those damnable heresies, and claim a superior place to me in the Church of Christ due to your made up "priesthood authority". You darned right I'm gonna respond like I do.

Where does this disscussion blaspheme God? Also, evidence of the Holy Priesthood and how it was given to men is Biblical. It is you who keep denying the evidence that is in The Word.

Amazingly, now you are claiming that OC has blasphemed God. When it is YOU who really is doing any blaspheming, you find no problem with it because you then claim that you are not blaspheming YOUR God, but rather mine. That is the very reason there are some discussions which I will not respond to you in. I will not be party to giving you any fuel to blaspheme God. When I do not respond, and you tire of unsuccessully bullying me into responding to you, you change tactics. In your typical version of being a "christian", you do something like this from your current signature line:

The post that Jo the Mormon refuses to answer here

I am saddened to see evidence of who seems to be sharing hold of both your heart AND your mind.

God bless,

jo

[OtherCheek]

OC, whats Apollos doing in Acts 18:28 ? It says that he debated ( argued ) the Jews using scripture. God uses well reasoned arguments to reach peoples hearts.

Just like we try to reason with you guys with scripture so the Spirit has something to work with in your heart and mind.

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. (Acts 18:28)

No, what Apollos did was great. But HE was not the convincer. That was the Holy Ghost which accompanied his efforts. I find no edifying spirit in Bill or Sparko's tactics or words. Their words don't meet the test from what I can tell.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

[OtherCheek]

Where does this disscussion blaspheme God? Also, evidence of the Holy Priesthood and how it was given to men is Biblical. It is you who keep denying the evidence that is in The Word.

Amazingly, now you are claiming that OC has blasphemed God. When it is YOU who really is doing any blaspheming, you find no problem with it because you then claim that you are not blaspheming YOUR God, but rather mine. That is the very reason there are some discussions which I will not respond to you in. I will not be party to giving you any fuel to blaspheme God. When I do not respond, and you tire of unsuccessully bullying me into responding to you, you change tactics. In your typical version of being a "christian", you do something like this from your current signature line:

The post that Jo the Mormon refuses to answer here

I am saddened to see evidence of who seems to be sharing hold of both your heart AND your mind.

God bless,

jo

Good observation, jo. When Bill and Sparko continually use the lower case "g" when referring to the LDS concept of God, you can tell right there that they are going out of their way to blaspheme God.

[Bill the Cat]

Such emotional outbursts, Bill. Is this your heart showing now?

Did Jesus' heart show when He flipped the tables at the temple?

[Bill the Cat]

Where does this disscussion blaspheme God?

Your DOCTRINE blasphemes God.

Also, evidence of the Holy Priesthood and how it was given to men is Biblical.

Not the way your church explains it. There are 3 priesthoods. The first was the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which was only for the Priest/King of Jerusalem. The second was the Levitical, which only went to male Levites over 30 who were not handicapped. The third is the priesthood of all believers. The "priesthoods" that you think your church possesses are completely made up.

It is you who keep denying the evidence that is in The Word.

As I've challenged you on SEVERAL occasions to prove it, but so far, you've dodged and weaved like Average Joe's gym.

Amazingly, now you are claiming that OC has blasphemed God.

Claiming He was once a man on another planet with a god of His own is utter blasphemy. I really don't care if you like that fact or not. It is the truth.

When it is YOU who really is doing any blaspheming, you find no problem with it because you then claim that you are not blaspheming YOUR God, but rather mine.

Yes, I am blaspheming YOUR god, who is really no god at all.

That is the very reason there are some discussions which I will not respond to you in. I will not be party to giving you any fuel to blaspheme God. When I do not respond, and you tire of unsuccessully bullying me into responding to you, you change tactics

Because you are a weasel. You claim "oh, but we are Christians too!", yet when pressed on admitting that your Jesus is different from the one in the Bible, you slink off in cowardice.

. In your typical version of being a "christian", you do something like this from your current signature line:

The post that Jo the Mormon refuses to answer here

Answer the post and I will gladly remove it.

I am saddened to see evidence of who seems to be sharing hold of both your heart AND your mind.

Why? God has my heart, and as He loved, so do I. He did not pussyfoot around with those who spouted false doctrines, and neither will I. Your church is fleecing from the flock of Christians, luring them away from the true Christ to Joseph Smith's false one.

[Bill the Cat]

Good observation, jo. When Bill and Sparko continually use the lower case "g" when referring to the LDS concept of God, you can tell right there that they are going out of their way to blaspheme God.

Can we really blaspheme what does not exist?

[jo7241974]

[QUOTE]

Your DOCTRINE blasphemes God.

Not the way your church explains it. There are 3 priesthoods. The first was the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which was only for the Priest/King of Jerusalem. The second was the Levitical, which only went to male Levites over 30 who were not handicapped. The third is the priesthood of all believers. The "priesthoods" that you think your church possesses are completely made up.

You still deny that there was something different which Jesus bestowed on His Apostles. You still deny that the Apostles used that special power to perform miracles and ordinances. Why? Why would Jesus give this power to only a few men? Why not all of them? Why was it necessary to make sure that someone with this power was the one to perform the ordinances? You have never been able to explain that, Bill. It is you who slinks off when you cannot explain your own beliefs. Nice try though.

As I've challenged you on SEVERAL occasions to prove it, but so far, you've dodged and weaved like Average Joe's gym.

This is yet another dodge on your part.

Claiming He was once a man on another planet with a god of His own is utter blasphemy. I really don't care if you like that fact or not. It is the truth.

You avoid every single aspect which is Biblical in order to avoid any further revelation received because you do not want to address the possibility that you have been led astray.

Yes, I am blaspheming YOUR god, who is really no god at all.

No, Bill, there is only one Heavenly Father; one Jesus Christ; one Holy Ghost. It is you who blaspheme.

Because you are a weasel. You claim "oh, but we are Christians too!", yet when pressed on admitting that your Jesus is different from the one in the Bible, you slink off in cowardice.

Resorting to defamation again because you are unable to present anything that can hold water.

Answer the post and I will gladly remove it.

Sorry, I will not be party to your glad habit of blaspheming God. What a nice way to continue to hold high the banner of a christian, Bill. I don't need to belittle you, or call you stupid, or a weasel. I point to what you say and do. Truth stands on its own. It does not need to be propped up with inflammatory remarks about the messenger in order to sound credible.

Why? God has my heart, and as He loved, so do I. He did not pussyfoot around with those who spouted false doctrines, and neither will I. Your church is fleecing from the flock of Christians, luring them away from the true Christ to Joseph Smith's false one.

Your words tell me differently. You keep telling me to prove my beliefs against The Word. It is The Word that teaches me that the words a man speaks tells me where his heart is. Jesus never belittled man; He pointed toward their actions and to who it was that they were serving. Your words betray you.