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Conscionable Banking

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  • Conscionable Banking

    Since the 2007/8 Global Financial Crisis (GFC), many of the international & domestic "too big to fail" banks have been put in jeopardy resulting in government props (a significant cost to various nations), which has resulted in social & political instability, which have resulted in the necessity for the latest IMF (Basel) interventions.

    Because of Oz's regulatory framework (centralised government), Oz's big four survived the GFC with barely a scratch. Because of the strength of the Oz banks and the strength of local regulation, Oz has been exempted from Basel's extremes. Never-the-less the global events of the last nine years has made local & global economists question the whole setup of "the western capitalist model" (read the endemic, unconscionable conduct pf the American financial sectors).

    I don't really know how the USA mortgage & property laws work. Are they state or federally regulated?

    From the global press, as far as I can deduce, in the USA when someone gets mortgage it is structured pretty much like an Oz mortgage,but with one exception! In Oz the mortgagee is the property owner, imu, in the USA the property owner is the bank.

    In Oz the mortgage contract is perpetual and doesn't cease until the debt is paid in full, even when the bank forecloses to guarantee partial payment of the debt.

    In contrast, imu, in the USA, because the bank owns the home until it is paid off - if the mortgagee defaults on the loan then the mortgagee forfeits any repayments made and the banks usually dispose of the property for what they could get (in parts of the USA, Oz investors were picking up prestigious properties for less than the price of a second hand car).

    The situation in the USA (as I've understood it) caused me to contemplate the application of Sharia law in the Islamic banking system (which in the integrated world economy is now worth several trillion USDs).

    As you know, all the Abrahamic religions (Jews, Christians & Muslims) obligate their practitioners to embrace the law of usury.

    Also, as you probably know, under Moses' usury law, the law did not apply to those outside of the immediate community. This loop hole allowed the Christian authorities to permit Christians to lend to Jews who would then on-lend to Christians.

    This C-J-C arrangement, and its counter part, the J-C-J arrangement, led to extortion, which led to the intervention of the authorities, which led to the redefinition of usury as the imposition of "extraordinary charges" above "fair repayment"- the Canon Law of the Catholic Church still forbids usury but within its definition of "extraordinary charges" and "fair repayment".

    To me, the RCC reasoning(which is worth a study) is reminiscent of the debates of the early 1st century Jewish sages, Hillel and Shammai. In their time, the Jewish usury laws, as then implemented, were sending Israel bankrupt.

    Shammai's concern was about both explicit & implicit profit in repayment of debts. He would argue that a housewife who loaned a loaf of bread to her neighbour could not receive a loaf of bread as repayment because the price of flour may have fluctuated. In which case either the housewife or her neighbour would have profited or experienced a loss from the transaction. Hillel disagreed, arguing a "a loaf of bread, is a loaf of bread, not the flour from which it is made".

    The above background leads me back to my understanding of the modern application of Sharia law in Islamic banking practices (which, imu, under Islamic law apply equally to all people of "the Book" = Muslims, Chriatians & Jews.

    I'm guessing, that as a broad principle, Islamic banking practices (prohibition of usury) under Islamic law, applies equally to anyone & everyone (? ).

    Imu, as with the Jewish sage Shammai, the Muslim sages were/are concerned about eliminating "profit" from all financial transactions. So, imu, "extortionate charges" = "profit", have to be eliminated from the mortgage repayment calculation.

    So how do Islamic banks make a "profit"?

    Imu, the guiding principle within Islam is that you can't gain wealth without "personal active work" - which immediately quarantines passive earnings = the profit component of "interest repayments".

    In a typical Western banking model, mortgage repayments are calculated as a curious composite of an agreed capital repayment amount, plus accumulated movement in the cost of funds for the loan in a deemed currency + administrative overheads + a profit factor (the later being distributed to shareholders = the providers of the original capital used to support loans). The actual repayments are "smoothed" over the life of the loan to ensure predictability of repayments - periodically either the repayment amount or loan term are adjusted due to monetary fluctuations.

    Imu, in the Sharia law banking model, mortgage repayments are additional to an "agreed household rent", which is progressively reduced as the loan is repaid. Loan repayments are recast periodically to reflect monetary fluctuations = the purchasing power of money (Hillel's end product argument). To this is added admin overheads, a facilitation fee (reimbursement for procuring capital) and a "share distribution" of profits in the value of the property.

    Imu, under Sharia law should the Mortgage holder have to "foreclose" any profit/loss is distributed to the banker & the borrower (?). Not sure what happens in the case of a loss event. Assuming the mortgagor is considered the property owner, I assume the borrower just walks away...

    *********************
    The bank failures in the U.S. during the 1980s [and more recently] revived interest in equity-based [banking]proposals and the separation of the payment of deposits from the portfolio activities of banks. The proposals made were strikingly similar to the Islamic systems now being implemented, at least on the deposit side. But the Islamic system goes further, requiring that loans made by banks should also be equity-based...

    ...slamic economics is a complete system of social and economic justice. It deals with property rights, the incentive system, the allocation of resources, economic freedom and decision-making and the proper role of government...

    ...[An] Islamic principle is that there should be no reward without risk-bearing. This principle is applicable to both labour and capital. As no payment is allowed to labour unless it is applied to work, so no reward for capital should be allowed unless it is exposed to business risks...

    Basis of Islamic Banking

    ... under an Islamic banking system, the cost of capital is not analogous to a zero interest rate, as some people wrongly assume it to be. The only difference between Islamic banking and interest-based banking in this respect is that the cost of capital in interest-based banking is a predetermined fixed rate, while in Islamic banking; it is expressed as a ratio of profit...


    "

    Islamic Institution of Banking & Finance
    http://www.islamic-banking.com/what_is_ibanking.aspx

  • #2
    Originally posted by elam View Post
    Since the 2007/8 Global Financial Crisis (GFC), many of the international & domestic "too big to fail" banks have been put in jeopardy resulting in government props (a significant cost to various nations), which has resulted in social & political instability, which have resulted in the necessity for the latest IMF (Basel) interventions.

    Because of Oz's regulatory framework (centralised government), Oz's big four survived the GFC with barely a scratch. Because of the strength of the Oz banks and the strength of local regulation, Oz has been exempted from Basel's extremes. Never-the-less the global events of the last nine years has made local & global economists question the whole setup of "the western capitalist model" (read the endemic, unconscionable conduct pf the American financial sectors).

    I don't really know how the USA mortgage & property laws work. Are they state or federally regulated?

    From the global press, as far as I can deduce, in the USA when someone gets mortgage it is structured pretty much like an Oz mortgage,but with one exception! In Oz the mortgagee is the property owner, imu, in the USA the property owner is the bank.

    In Oz the mortgage contract is perpetual and doesn't cease until the debt is paid in full, even when the bank forecloses to guarantee partial payment of the debt.

    In contrast, imu, in the USA, because the bank owns the home until it is paid off - if the mortgagee defaults on the loan then the mortgagee forfeits any repayments made and the banks usually dispose of the property for what they could get (in parts of the USA, Oz investors were picking up prestigious properties for less than the price of a second hand car).

    The situation in the USA (as I've understood it) caused me to contemplate the application of Sharia law in the Islamic banking system (which in the integrated world economy is now worth several trillion USDs).

    As you know, all the Abrahamic religions (Jews, Christians & Muslims) obligate their practitioners to embrace the law of usury.

    Also, as you probably know, under Moses' usury law, the law did not apply to those outside of the immediate community. This loop hole allowed the Christian authorities to permit Christians to lend to Jews who would then on-lend to Christians.

    This C-J-C arrangement, and its counter part, the J-C-J arrangement, led to extortion, which led to the intervention of the authorities, which led to the redefinition of usury as the imposition of "extraordinary charges" above "fair repayment"- the Canon Law of the Catholic Church still forbids usury but within its definition of "extraordinary charges" and "fair repayment".

    To me, the RCC reasoning(which is worth a study) is reminiscent of the debates of the early 1st century Jewish sages, Hillel and Shammai. In their time, the Jewish usury laws, as then implemented, were sending Israel bankrupt.

    Shammai's concern was about both explicit & implicit profit in repayment of debts. He would argue that a housewife who loaned a loaf of bread to her neighbour could not receive a loaf of bread as repayment because the price of flour may have fluctuated. In which case either the housewife or her neighbour would have profited or experienced a loss from the transaction. Hillel disagreed, arguing a "a loaf of bread, is a loaf of bread, not the flour from which it is made".

    The above background leads me back to my understanding of the modern application of Sharia law in Islamic banking practices (which, imu, under Islamic law apply equally to all people of "the Book" = Muslims, Chriatians & Jews.

    I'm guessing, that as a broad principle, Islamic banking practices (prohibition of usury) under Islamic law, applies equally to anyone & everyone (? ).

    Imu, as with the Jewish sage Shammai, the Muslim sages were/are concerned about eliminating "profit" from all financial transactions. So, imu, "extortionate charges" = "profit", have to be eliminated from the mortgage repayment calculation.

    So how do Islamic banks make a "profit"?

    Imu, the guiding principle within Islam is that you can't gain wealth without "personal active work" - which immediately quarantines passive earnings = the profit component of "interest repayments".

    In a typical Western banking model, mortgage repayments are calculated as a curious composite of an agreed capital repayment amount, plus accumulated movement in the cost of funds for the loan in a deemed currency + administrative overheads + a profit factor (the later being distributed to shareholders = the providers of the original capital used to support loans). The actual repayments are "smoothed" over the life of the loan to ensure predictability of repayments - periodically either the repayment amount or loan term are adjusted due to monetary fluctuations.

    Imu, in the Sharia law banking model, mortgage repayments are additional to an "agreed household rent", which is progressively reduced as the loan is repaid. Loan repayments are recast periodically to reflect monetary fluctuations = the purchasing power of money (Hillel's end product argument). To this is added admin overheads, a facilitation fee (reimbursement for procuring capital) and a "share distribution" of profits in the value of the property.

    Imu, under Sharia law should the Mortgage holder have to "foreclose" any profit/loss is distributed to the banker & the borrower (?). Not sure what happens in the case of a loss event. Assuming the mortgagor is considered the property owner, I assume the borrower just walks away...

    *********************
    The bank failures in the U.S. during the 1980s [and more recently] revived interest in equity-based [banking]proposals and the separation of the payment of deposits from the portfolio activities of banks. The proposals made were strikingly similar to the Islamic systems now being implemented, at least on the deposit side. But the Islamic system goes further, requiring that loans made by banks should also be equity-based...

    ...slamic economics is a complete system of social and economic justice. It deals with property rights, the incentive system, the allocation of resources, economic freedom and decision-making and the proper role of government...

    ...[An] Islamic principle is that there should be no reward without risk-bearing. This principle is applicable to both labour and capital. As no payment is allowed to labour unless it is applied to work, so no reward for capital should be allowed unless it is exposed to business risks...

    Basis of Islamic Banking

    ... under an Islamic banking system, the cost of capital is not analogous to a zero interest rate, as some people wrongly assume it to be. The only difference between Islamic banking and interest-based banking in this respect is that the cost of capital in interest-based banking is a predetermined fixed rate, while in Islamic banking; it is expressed as a ratio of profit...


    "

    Islamic Institution of Banking & Finance
    http://www.islamic-banking.com/what_is_ibanking.aspx





    elam :
    Join Date:Sep 2016
    Faith:RCC

    giphy.gif
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      What the hell is "Imu?"
      "In my Underwear?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        What the hell is "Imu?"
        25efc33ec6c7cbf19041c4756e840929.jpg
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          elam :
          Join Date:Sep 2016
          Faith:RCC

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]20731[/ATTACH]
          In case you did not know, Catholics and Muslims do have commonalities in economic ethics. Like aversion to taking interest.
          http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

          Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            What the hell is "Imu?"
            "In my Underwear?"
            In my understanding.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
              In case you did not know, Catholics and Muslims do have commonalities in economic ethics. Like aversion to taking interest.
              If you hadn't used the term "Isa bin Maryam" saying it's Jesus' "true name" then I doubt he would have posted that. Isa bin Maryam is an Arabic, and especially Muslim term for Jesus. The more you post, the more suspicious your faith designation seems.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                In case you did not know, Catholics and Muslims do have commonalities in economic ethics. Like aversion to taking interest.
                It's just one more bit of evidence that elam isn't what he claims to be.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  In my understanding.
                  Reading his post I think I was the one who has it correct.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by elam View Post
                    I don't really know how the USA mortgage & property laws work. Are they state or federally regulated?
                    Property laws are State Regulated. Mortgage laws are as well both Federally and State regulated IIRC.

                    From the global press, as far as I can deduce, in the USA when someone gets mortgage it is structured pretty much like an Oz mortgage,but with one exception! In Oz the mortgagee is the property owner, imu, in the USA the property owner is the bank.
                    No, YUI (you understand incorrectly) In the US, all States AFAIK, have the mortgagee as the property owner and the bank as a lien holder. Because property is so expensive, usually the only thing mortgagee's have to guarantee the loan is the property itself. Therefore, in case of default, the bank takes the mortgagee to court in order to obtain the collateral for the loan. If the mortgagee has something else to guarantee the loan other than the property, then that would be what was forfeited and the property would stay with the mortgagee...but it's very rarely done that way. Also, (at least here in Texas), if you can come up with the balance due before the court date, then the lender must accept the payment and release the lien on your loan.

                    In contrast, imu, in the USA, because the bank owns the home until it is paid off - if the mortgagee defaults on the loan then the mortgagee forfeits any repayments made and the banks usually dispose of the property for what they could get (in parts of the USA, Oz investors were picking up prestigious properties for less than the price of a second hand car).
                    Not exactly. If you default on the loan, then (again) yes the bank retrieves it's collateral, which is usually the land and sells it for what it can get. You do lose your payments to settle the loan, but you are only on the hook for the balance (of what you have already paid + what they get for the property minus the total loan amount.
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                      In case you did not know, Catholics and Muslims do have commonalities in economic ethics. Like aversion to taking interest.
                      While the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (Institute for Religious Works a.k.a. the "Vatican Bank") doesn't make loans they do charge interest on securities. As Fortune magazine notes:

                      Its biggest regular source of revenue is the “spread income” between what it pays depositors and the interest it receives on the securities that back those deposits, mainly short-term government and corporate bonds.


                      And according to Cannon Law Made Easy (which bills itself as providing "Church Law for Common People"):

                      The Catholic Church isn't isn't opposed to charging or paying interest on a loan per se; but its moral teachings on dealings with our fellow-man can definitely be applied when the conditions for obtaining a loan fail to take into consideration the humanity of the borrower.
                      Last edited by rogue06; 02-06-2017, 11:32 AM.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        elam :
                        Join Date:Sep 2016
                        Faith:RCC
                        (?)

                        The RCC gets along very well with most Jews & Muslims.

                        Muslim, Christian, Jewish Leaders Plan Interfaith Worship Center in Jerusalem
                        https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/7...ter-jerusalem/

                        Interestingly, the Islamic Banking Association accredits their current "equity" system to an non-muslim American economist.

                        ********************

                        I suspect you are also antagonistic towards Luke's account of Christian activity at Acts 4:31-32: "...filled with the Holy Spirit...the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had...

                        ********************

                        Bill the Cat:
                        Join Date Jan 2014
                        Faith Christian

                        giphy.gif
                        Last edited by elam; 02-07-2017, 03:35 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          If you hadn't used the term "Isa bin Maryam" saying it's Jesus' "true name" then I doubt he would have posted that. Isa bin Maryam is an Arabic, and especially Muslim term for Jesus. The more you post, the more suspicious your faith designation seems.
                          You did not specify any post in which I would have used the term.
                          http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                          Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            It's just one more bit of evidence that elam isn't what he claims to be.
                            No, but perhaps this is:

                            Originally posted by elam View Post
                            The RCC gets along very well with most Jews & Muslims.

                            Muslim, Christian, Jewish Leaders Plan Interfaith Worship Center in Jerusalem
                            https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/7...ter-jerusalem/
                            Not RCC then, but "RCC", as in Novus Ordo / Vatican II and the stuff.
                            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              If you hadn't used the term "Isa bin Maryam" saying it's Jesus' "true name" then I doubt he would have posted that.
                              I can only assume that his brain cells are clogged with bacon fat. He seems to have missed the fact that regarding the usury laws I made mention it applied to the three Abrahamic religions and specifically noted the RCC in Canon Law still prohibits it within a particular definition...so he seems to have been too preoccupied with his prejudices to actually respond to the OP.

                              ********************

                              As for the one occasion I can remember using "Isa bin Maryam": It appears I may have been misinformed regarding the Aramaic (there are several dialects).

                              I trusted the account of an acquaintance of mine who originated from an Aramaic speaking Christian village in Syria. He always uses the name Isa bin Miriam". When I asked him why, he told me that "Isa" was the name his mother called him. "It is his in Aramaic name". Since then, from text book sources, I've encountered another three forms of the name in Aramaic = Eesho, Ishu & Isho

                              In middle-English (attested from the 12th century), the son of Mary, Son of God was called "Iesu" which is close to the Aramaic dialects.

                              You may not be aware that the name "Jesus" was not used in the original KJV of 1611. It used "Iesous” (pronounced ee-ay-sooce'),

                              The modern nominative name "Jesus" was coined less than three hundred years ago via linguistic shifts.

                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              Isa bin Maryam is an Arabic, and especially Muslim term for Jesus.
                              So what? In English, Muslims translate it to "Jesus son of Mary". It is a recognisable name, in another language.

                              So you take umbrage when Hebrew speakers refer to Yeshu?

                              You may not be aware, that Islam isn't a cohesive religion. There are numerous sects. Some"heretically" almost Christian. Islam universally teaches the second coming and that Jesus will at this time judge the living and the dead. That is something Christian believers have in common with them.

                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              The more you post, the more suspicious your faith designation seems.
                              Why so? Read the Catholic Catechism. I'm not aware of ever contradicting it...

                              I'm highly suspicious of how many Christian believers actually participate in these forums. Many seem to get riled when Acts 4:31-32 is referenced = "filled with the Holy Spirit...believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had."

                              Comment

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