Should two dating christians kiss?

[hedrick]

Why did arranged marriages go out of style? Is it because everyone became more worldly? I doubt it. Today's situation differs from the Biblical one is one key manner: people typically get married like 10 years later, because of extended education. Parents are likely not in a position to arrange a marriage for a 20-some child who hasn't been living at home for 4 years. And I doubt we want them marrying at 13.

Why is there more divorce? More sexual exploration before marriage may be part of it. There seems to be evidence that lots of sexual partners before marriage makes commitment harder, though studies like this are full of dangers. But that's certainly not the only influence. Until recently we largely ignored spousal abuse and other problems in marriages. There was no way out. While divorce causes serious problems even now, we've got a lot better support for divorced people now than they did in the 1st Cent. I think at least some of the increase in divorce is good: it means that people now have a way out of situations they would have been stuck with before. The increased freedom is also abused, no doubt. I don't know any good way to assess how much of the increase is for good reasons.

I'm sure Arsenio would be happy to take a time portal to the 1st Cent, or perhaps some other Christian golden age.. I wouldn't.

Everyone here has been talking about dating as if it was always with a likely partner for marriage. At least among teens (who I know better than adults in this area), that's not the primary purpose.

[princesa]

Princesa! What a wonderful change from the judgmental and hateful polemics of the dating enthusiasts here...

Dating is a sub-category of courting...
So also is kissing and holding hands...
So also is making out and petting...
And the list goes on and on...

But courting is the encountering of a person of the opposite sex for purposes of evaluation of suitability for marriage... Properly done, it is done in a familial and social setting under adult supervision... When adults court, they tend to do so without adult supervision, imagining that they are the self-supervising adults of themselves... And in many cases they are... In most, they are not... And the reason for this is that not all adults are adults - In my experience, most are not, and this on a general level... And even those who are at some levels, most of these are not at some levels... And the most common failing is in the arena of man-woman relationships... Those who have their heads on straight in this regard, when they hit 25, normally have children and jobs and a decent prayer life... If you are 25 and unmarried, you are still figuring it out, and this normally means you don't have clue one... [I was one of these, btw - I ended up never marrying...]

What proper courting does, in familial and social settings, usually Church gatherings, is it allows one to see and be seen interacting with others and doing things - Like folk dancing, playing tennis or softball, and on and on... And two can sit at table and talk, so that the issue of sexual attraction is never given an opportunity to interfere with the process of getting to know someone outside of the marriage relationship, because that needs to be established first...

Thank-you for the kindness of your question!

Arsenios

thank you, that's pretty much the explanation i received on the shoutbox from others. That sounds great actually but it seems so far removed from anything done in this day and age. And ofcourse, courting is never a guarantee that a marriage will work out better than dating but it certainly would curb any sexual activities due to the settings and other people involved. I wonder if there areas in the world today that maintain courting over dating.

[Xmansmommy]

Don't like the Jacob-Rachel story? Ok, it is a complicated one. How about Isaac and Rebekah? That's a much better example as it doesn't contain all the other instructive material that confuses so many.

How about Samson and his first wife? He dated and chose and it turned out badly. Actually, all his choices of mate were rotten, got him in real trouble. The Lord was able to turn it to good and work great glory out of it, but old Sammy must have thought long and hard about his mistakes with women as he pushed the grist mill with his eyes poked out.

The Biblical model of marriage, where The Lord proscribed the Jews how to go about it, saw the newly married couple spend a whole year in their home, near the family, just to get to know one another. Get all the fighting out of the way that first year and they would know each other better than so many of the dating western couples that marry on physical chemistry or other foolish and vain and immature notions. What do you do when the spark is gone? Divorce and find another lust-object. Christians are supposed to be different than the world. A survey of the married folks here might turn up the experiential truth of the matter.....how many of them were virgins their marriage night? How many have kept the marriage bed unsullied? How many dates turned out mere fornication forays before finding "the one"? How's it turning out? Ok, no need to answer, that might cause some trouble....examine the whole thing Scripturally.

Yes and unless you're looking for a spouse for your little princess within your family tree, you aren't exactly as biblical about this issue as you might be expecting Christians to be.

Perhaps a little off topic but pertinent nonetheless.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

thank you, that's pretty much the explanation i received on the shoutbox from others. That sounds great actually but it seems so far removed from anything done in this day and age. And ofcourse, courting is never a guarantee that a marriage will work out better than dating but it certainly would curb any sexual activities due to the settings and other people involved. I wonder if there areas in the world today that maintain courting over dating.

For a fact it is rare, but it exists... And it works... In the Orthodox Church...

Right here in E-Burg, we had a home-school graduation party for three seniors, renting a community center for the occasion, that was what I can only describe as a HUGE success - Adults and children came from all over the state, and they danced till midnight or so - And as I was watching it, the dancing was enthusiastic without any hint of the bump and grind gyrations seen everywhere, little 4 year olds were dancing with 55 year olds [dads and moms and grand-parents], and young folks were getting to know each other... I thought at the time: This is where the future is, and the generation surrounding Orthodoxy cannot know it, for they are unexposed to the Faith in which it so naturally arises... But it will come, here, in this great land of freedom... Here is an accurate local news story link - Written by one of the moms there participating and organizing...

http://www.dailyrecordnews.com/scrap...9bb2963f4.html

This is our second gathering here, for we are a small parish of 60, but in Yakima, such gatherings on Church grounds are common, and our kids tend to look to other Orthodox kids for marriage, and those who don't, and who stray, end up bringing their spouses into the Faith almost every time... I have a ton of stories locally generated in this... A woman with two kids living on and off with their father became Orthodox turning celibate outside of marriage to remain in Communion, and ended up married to the man when after much hanging out and soul searching he also became Orthodox, and they now have another beautiful child we will baptize next week... And on and on...

These kids would not dream of going out on an unsupervised "date" with a prospective spouse... IF they were to find themselves attracted at one of these socials, they can interact there, and discuss possibilities of marriage with their parents, who if they approve, will then go to the Priest, who in turn will contact the priest of the proposed future spouse, who will go to his/her parents, who will then ask the one in question... [Who is doubtless wondering why it is all taking so long!] And then further arrangements can be made for outings and get togethers, and the inquiries needed to establish suitability, and a time line, and all the stuff needed for a life together - Education, career, where to have the marriage, where to live, how to proceed... It's a big deal... It is the entry into the Holy Sacrament of the Union of man and woman into one flesh... Those marriages tend to last way past the kids leaving the household, being filled with grand-children and their children...

Did you listen to the 3 tapes I linked earlier in this thread?

This business of going out on some dates to get to "know" each other so as to make decisions regarding a private commitment to some humanly engineered "marriage" is an order of magnitude departure from the joining by God of man and woman in Him...

Arsenios

PS - One of the graduates is just now arrived in Boston attending another gathering of the Faithful for a week of encounter and learning and worship - Here is that link:

http://hellenic.hchc.edu/hellenic/ca...lery/2184.html

That is a 3000 mile distance for education and encounter for a week... And he comes from a poor family of many children, but received a scholarship for travel and registration from the Church...

So the answer to your question is, simply and a little breathlessly: "Yes!"

A.

[Sparko]

What about Christian adults?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

What about Christian adults?

Humility and self-sacrifice is the key...

One must confess one's broken-ness, one's failure as an adult to either marry successfully when young or to choose well or to conduct one's self well in one's failed marriage... And this works out in going to one's Priest with one's desire for marriage or re-marriage, and seeking direction, and FOLLOWING it...

But all this is within the Orthodox Christian Faith... As a Protestant, you do not have this level of support... "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" with all its inter-articulations is Orthodox... The full range of human stuff is there, but it is not about dressing to the nines, going to a small expensive restaurant, having a private candle-light dinner with a good bottle of wine, looking deeply into each other's eyes, with your finger-tips touching, and then in words of love being honest about how you FEEL... [Unless, of course, the couple on this date is MARRIED...]

And within the Church, there are many functions in which single adults work with their married counterparts to set up, do the function, and clean up, and in which they can make discreet inquiries, and they can be passed along and answers can come back... Just as we are enjoined to pray for one another, interceding before God in behalf of one another, so also in matters such as these, we act as intermediaries for one another, and thereby we make this possible event a function of the Body of Christ, rather than a private separated and segregated transaction between two people who are broken and blind and needy and wishful...

And if other adults in these functions acting as intermediaries foresee problems arising in the relationship being sought, they can address them as the inquiry is passed along... And what is best can come forth at the hands of those married adults who are experienced and successful in their marriages... And it takes humility and a desire for self-sacrifice for someone to approach marriage in this way, and it should be the norm...

You see, in Orthodoxy, your marriage has as its sole purpose, for you, the salvation of your spouse, and this at any cost to yourself... Everything else flows from this focus, and within it, ANY issue can be addressed and resolved...

Arsenios

[Sparko]

Humility and self-sacrifice is the key...

One must confess one's broken-ness, one's failure as an adult to either marry successfully when young or to choose well or to conduct one's self well in one's failed marriage... And this works out in going to one's Priest with one's desire for marriage or re-marriage, and seeking direction, and FOLLOWING it...

But all this is within the Orthodox Christian Faith... As a Protestant, you do not have this level of support... "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" with all its inter-articulations is Orthodox... The full range of human stuff is there, but it is not about dressing to the nines, going to a small expensive restaurant, having a private candle-light dinner with a good bottle of wine, looking deeply into each other's eyes, with your finger-tips touching, and then in words of love being honest about how you FEEL... [Unless, of course, the couple on this date is MARRIED...]

And within the Church, there are many functions in which single adults work with their married counterparts to set up, do the function, and clean up, and in which they can make discreet inquiries, and they can be passed along and answers can come back... Just as we are enjoined to pray for one another, interceding before God in behalf of one another, so also in matters such as these, we act as intermediaries for one another, and thereby we make this possible event a function of the Body of Christ, rather than a private separated and segregated transaction between two people who are broken and blind and needy and wishful...

And if other adults in these functions acting as intermediaries foresee problems arising in the relationship being sought, they can address them as the inquiry is passed along... And what is best can come forth at the hands of those married adults who are experienced and successful in their marriages... And it takes humility and a desire for self-sacrifice for someone to approach marriage in this way, and it should be the norm...

You see, in Orthodoxy, your marriage has as its sole purpose, for you, the salvation of your spouse, and this at any cost to yourself... Everything else flows from this focus, and within it, ANY issue can be addressed and resolved...

Arsenios

Wow. so you see an unmarried adult as a failure who has to ask forgiveness for his/her failure from their priest? That's pretty harsh. And then they have to ask the priest to basically arrange the marriage for them?

and what is this about marriage's sole purpose being the salvation of your spouse? Are you saying that an unmarried woman isn't saved?

[Catholicity]

and what is this about marriage's sole purpose being the salvation of your spouse? Are you saying that an unmarried woman isn't saved?

I can't Speak for Orthodoxy but I know that Catholics consider marriage as a sacrament (salvific) however we understand that there are those called to lead a chaste life, when this happens while on earth they remain physically unmarried in the greater sense they are part of the bride of Christ thus they meet the Sacramental requirements. Is there a similar philosphy in the Orthodox church?

[Thersites]

Wow. so you see an unmarried adult as a failure who has to ask forgiveness for his/her failure from their priest? That's pretty harsh. And then they have to ask the priest to basically arrange the marriage for them?

and what is this about marriage's sole purpose being the salvation of your spouse? Are you saying that an unmarried woman isn't saved?

Apparently, Stephen Colbert tells his guests, "My character is an idiot; it is your job to set him straight." He asks intentionally stupid questions in order to give the guest a better chance to give a serious explanation.

Is that what you're doing here, or am I misreading you?

[Sparko]

Disregard the above.

will do

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Wow. so you see an unmarried adult as a failure who has to ask forgiveness for his/her failure from their priest? That's pretty harsh. And then they have to ask the priest to basically arrange the marriage for them?

Well, a kid has the excuse which is excusable - He is a kid... No experience... So that in the humility of no experience, he is obedient to those over him, his parents and his priest and the elders of the Church Community...

An adult has, basically, but two options - He or she can marry, or become a monastic, dedicating their lives to God... Marriage is seen as a form of monasticism, in that in entails self-renunciation, as monasticism does... The monastic marries Christ, and the nuptials marry each other IN Christ...

So that if you decide to follow neither option, you are basically on your own, having no obedience, and being self-ruled... Self rulership is not Christian... Self denial IS... As is obedience - In marriage one to another in Christ, and in a monastery to one's Abbot or Abbess...

But those are the two paths blessed by Christ - Celibate or married, and celibate is for those who are ABLE to do so, and married is for the rest of us... Dating, kissing, having affairs, and living together is not part of the Christian scene as Christ prescribed it and Paul taught...

and what is this about marriage's sole purpose being the salvation of your spouse? Are you saying that an unmarried woman isn't saved?

No.

Marriage is self-sacrifice, not self-fulfillment... You place your spouse first in all things, wherein your primary concern is the welfare of her soul unto salvation... You LIFE comes AFTER this concern... Marriage is not about me, me, and me... You have to give up your me in marriage...

If this is how it is to be done, is it any wonder that most marriages end in divorce in the west? Adam blamed Eve, and Eve did not warn Adam... We who are in Christ are to correct that malfeasance, for both Adam and Eve lost their salvation - And bereft of the Holy Spirit as a component of their souls, they were naked and ashamed...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I can't Speak for Orthodoxy but I know that Catholics consider marriage as a sacrament (salvific) however we understand that there are those called to lead a chaste life, when this happens while on earth they remain physically unmarried in the greater sense they are part of the bride of Christ thus they meet the Sacramental requirements. Is there a similar philosphy in the Orthodox church?

Well, we do not see salvation as meeting requirements, Sacramental or otherwise... But see above - The marriage bed is undefiled, for God has blessed it... For those who can, living unmarried in chastity is preferred, for one can dedicate their whole life to God, rather than to one another in marriage... But monastic vows confirm one's marriage to Christ alone, and His Mother becomes ones own Mother, and that's how it is - We understand the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of monastics...

But for sure, a person CAN, in the Orthodox Faith, life a chaste life unmarried in the service of the Church, in whatever capacity they can qualify for... But it is a precarious position for those who do so, because they are in the world facing worldly temptations... We always have, each year, the graduating class of seminarians advertising for wives, because once ordained into the Diaconate, they can no longer marry... Or re-marry should they become widowed...

In a word, we follow the canons of the first 7 Ecumenical Councils of which your Church was a part...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

But for sure, a person CAN, in the Orthodox Faith, life a chaste life unmarried in the service of the Church, in whatever capacity they can qualify for... But it is a precarious position for those who do so, because they are in the world facing worldly temptations... We always have, each year, the graduating class of seminarians advertising for wives, because once ordained into the Diaconate, they can no longer marry... Or re-marry should they become widowed...

Interesting application of 1 Cor 7:8-11 that your deacons generally seek to be married before becoming deacons but are not allowed to seek it afterwards.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Interesting application of 1 Cor 7:8-11 that your deacons generally seek to be married before becoming deacons but are not allowed to seek it afterwards.

Yes, for those who wish to marry, that is the only chance they have, and it is well understood, and the marriages are often arranged for the approval of the nuptials... There are some who do not marry and serve, and of these, some become monastics... It is not an application of 1 Cor 7:8-11 that I know of anyway - It is simply the Canons of the Church...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

Yes, for those who wish to marry, that is the only chance they have, and it is well understood, and the marriages are often arranged for the approval of the nuptials... There are some who do not marry and serve, and of these, some become monastics... It is not an application of 1 Cor 7:8-11 that I know of anyway - It is simply the Canons of the Church.

Well, at least you're honest that the rule is not based on Scripture.