Being vs Doing. Saved by faith. Saved by good works.

[UrbanMonk]

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I want to address this once more in case anything I said in the previous post isn't clear. Previous post HERE.

Matthew is functionally following Jewish fables of a tribal superhero rendered in English as "Messiah". The Messiah is a myth, whose story, like the story of Santa Claus, becomes more and more complex as the centuries plod on. The Messiah-type myth is so tempting that Islam has adopted it's own version of a tribal superhero rendered as "Mahdi". These myths appeal to anyone looking for someone to save his life...as, for example, a man...or as a person (unique personality). This is the most popular concept of salvation, longed for by sinners. This kind of salvation is functionally opposite the kind of salvation Jesus represented, which tends to explain why he was largely rejected by Messianic myth-mongers (Jewish leadership), and why Jesus, in turn, rejected a worldly crown. Matthew essentially rejects Jesus' rejection of a Messianic crown, and forces it on him anyway. This satisfies anyone who still longs for a tribal superhero, and is willing to accept Jesus as their king...king of human tribalmen (people).

This pop coronation essentially ignores statements to the contrary that tell us the World ("Kingdom") of Christ is not of this world. You should be aware that NT scribes are split on this issue. They are confused, and so, they are confusing. For all we know, elves are longing for an elven superking, and trolls are looking for a glorious troll king who will come and rule trolls more effectively than other troll kings have done. The point is that Christ is not a troll, nor an elf, nor a human. The other point is that what does not exist cannot be saved. Go(o)d only knows if trolls exist or not. If they don't, how can they be saved? They can't! But try telling that to a troll. Trolls have books that tell them how the ground they walk on was created by a Great Author, or "Gor" for short. Gor created them and will save them from badly behaving trolls.

We humans think our myths are better than troll myths. We take them seriously. Meanwhile, we are seriously dying.

So what I'm asking you to do is make a choice...to choose one or the other kind of salvation. If you want to save your own life, you'll choose in favor of a glorious tribal superhero myth. If you want to save the Life of Christ, you'll choose to end any other kind of so-called "life". You can't have both. Any attempt to save the life of your humanhood (and/or your personhood) will automatically disqualify any attempt to save the Life of Christ.

To make the choice easier, I'll explain why you can't save the Life of Christ by good works. I'll explain why good works work to save the life of your personhood/manhood instead. The reason is because a Being (Christ) cannot be saved by behavior.

Behavior is the savior of all that is not Christ. The essential difference between Christ and all that is not Christ is the difference between Being and doing. There is nothing you can do to be Christ. A Being, like Christ, doesn't do anything. A Being, like Christ, is omnicient...is too big to do anything. Christ is everywhere. Where, then, would Christ go? Actions are the domain of doers, and doers must be finite. Conversely, Christ is infinite. So, actions are out of the question. Christ IS. What IS does not do. All we can do is ACCEPT what IS (true). We begin to accept when we begin to believe (the truth). We have accepted when we know the Truth.

Behavior is the domain of the doer, who saves himself by behaving for his "savior". The doer's savior is his "lord", who lords his will over the will of the doer. By doing this and that, the doer is saved from Being...saved for more doing. Any kind of work (except the work of changing his mind) will save the doer from being the Being. The doer must stop brewing and start Being...if he is willing to save the Being from doing. Stillness threatens the doers "life" , and so the doer occupies his life with work, both good and bad. Doesn't matter. Any kind of work will save the sinner(doer) from the Spirit.

To Be, or not to Be...that is the question the doer must ask if he would be saved. He will be saved either way. One way saves the doer, the other saves what IS. To save what IS, the doer must "die". The doer will die when he ceases and desists from doing anything. Then he will be deceased...as a doer. As soon as the doer ceases, what IS will resume its rightful place as what IS...Life...Being. If you want to end the "life" of the doer, pray this prayer, "Be still, and know that I am Go(o)d". The doer will be replaced with the Divine, and the believer will be replaced with the Knower.

Those who want to Be are saved by faith. There is nothing they can do. In fact, they need do nothing. They need to do nothing. Who here believes he is a Being? That one will be saved when he stops to pray, "Be still, and know that I am Go(o)d". Who is weary of doing and wants to start Being? It is whomever will stop, and pray; "Be still, and know that I am Go(o)d". Have faith that this is true and what IS will be revealed ("live"), while what isn't will fade away and vanish ("die"). Elf beings will vanish. Troll beings will disappear. And human beings will pass away. All that will be left standing is Spirit Being...the Truth.

If the doer wants to die to doing, he must be careful what he thinks. All behavior is relative to thinking. What the doer thinks, he believes. Believing in what is not true, there is nothing the doer can do to die. Believing in what is not true, a doer will behave anywhere from oddly to badly. Only as the doer begins to believe what is true can he begin to die to all his doing. This means that old ways of thinking must die first. When the thinker ends what does not think like Christ, the doer will be "dead". This is "the way" of Jesus. Follow it if you dare. What does not think like Christ is what I'll call the tinker-thinker...always tinkering. The believer must take a stand against the tinker, still his mind, and open it up for Christ to enter with Christ's way of thinking. There is a "way" to do this. We would be wise to follow the way of one who has put on Christ by inviting Christ's thoughts into his mind. We would be wise to follow Jesus in this regard.

[Xian-Pugilist]

Works don't save,
but the saved will have works.
If they don't have works they don't have faith.
if you don't have faith you can't have grace
you aren't saved of anything if you don't have grace.

You are saved to do works, and any works you do is the VINE putting the fruit on the branch. YOU are the branch. All you do is hold it. So those works are as much Grace as salvation is. In fact it's the same Grace, just like the heads side and the tails side are the same coin.

Jesus saved those that did the works in matt 25's last parable. The works weren't what saved them. But the ones without works weren't saved. The thing that saves you, manifests in works.

So no works you can do will save you,
but if you don't have works, you should be sweating it.

Further, it's through works you are matured to fulfill the spiritual development God has planned for you.

Enjoy, scripture available upon request.

[Enow]

Works don't save,
but the saved will have works.

That is supported.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If they don't have works they don't have faith.

Not supported: Romans 4:1-11

James 2nd chapter use of "faith without works" was addressing a different kind of faith: as in faith in His Providence: it was never about the faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation. James addressed how the church would verbally state their faith in His Providence to the departing poor to be warmed and to be filled as if by saying it, they are exercising their faith in God's Providence to the poor without meeting from the bounty collected at the church, any of the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing from the elements and starvation. It is that kind of faith that does not profit the poor nor save the poor. So this was not about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but leading by example of that faith that the church claim to have in His Providence to the departing poor.

James did reference Abraham in regards to the offer of Isaac as a sacrifice in referring to that faith he was writing about in regards to His providence. Jehovah-jireh was the name of the place of what Abraham and Jews refer to in regards to the testimony in Gebesis 22nd chapter of how God provides for His servant as in "God will see to it".

So "faith without works" was referring to any believer or church "verbalizing their faith in His Providence" and yet fail to lead by example of their faith in His Providence. It is that kind of faith when verbalizing that faith to the poor that does not "profit" the poor nor "save" them when the poor are about to perish from the elements.

[Enow]

If they don't have works they don't have faith.
if you don't have faith you can't have grace
you aren't saved of anything if you don't have grace.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You are saved to do works, and any works you do is the VINE putting the fruit on the branch.

Refuted below as it is by abiding in His words can His disciples bear fruit. Not by doing works.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

YOU are the branch. All you do is hold it. So those works are as much Grace as salvation is. In fact it's the same Grace, just like the heads side and the tails side are the same coin.

Again: Romans 11:5-6 refutes works as being of grace. It is by living by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd that He will finish His work in us to His glory.

Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Seems to me that the only thing I am holding unto is by Hs grace and help in keeping the faith as He is the One holding unto me. Thanks to Him, that is my faith in the Son of God.

[Enow]

Jesus saved those that did the works in matt 25's last parable. The works weren't what saved them. But the ones without works weren't saved. The thing that saves you, manifests in works.

So no works you can do will save you,
but if you don't have works, you should be sweating it.

The last standard of judgment being given in Matthew 25 is when Jesus will sit as Son of man on the throne of His glory. It is discerned that this judgment is going to be applied towards those during the great tribulation that did not believe in Him but did not take the mark of the beast either. These people will be judged by how they treated the saints during the great tribulation on whethor or not they can enter into His milleniel reign.

[Enow]

Further, it's through works you are matured to fulfill the spiritual development God has planned for you.

Enjoy, scripture available upon request.

It is by continuing in His words that we abide in Him to bear fruit so that our joy may be full. Will not our love abound more and more in the knowledge of Him? Yes. Of course.

One can be so involved in works that when questioned of his faith, he is offended because of the word. We grow as His disciples by continuing in His words in learning of Him. That is how we have roots to withstand the storms of life and the heat of persecution when we turn to our Good Shepherd for help and to His words for reproofs we need in keeping the faith which is the good fight.

If we remember how He will bring us Home:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Then by recognizing the new reality of our life in Christ:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We are now in a relationship with God that we can call Him Father. Thanks to Jesus Christ, we can get to know God personally by learning of the Son, the Bridegroom.

Thus the race we are running is not about doing works as proof of salvation, but living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ by looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us continually lay aside every weight and sin ( Hebrews 12:1-2) so as to depart from iniquity to be that vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb: 2 Timothy 2:19-22 1 Corinthians 5th chapter

As many are called but few are chosen, then Jesus choosing His disciples for abiding in His words with His help and by His grace is why they would be attending the Marriage Supper, and why those that are saved, but did not look to Him for help to continue in His words to abide in Him in bearing fruit will find themselves left behind.

It all boils down to where the believer's hope rests in: Jesus Christ and His workmanship in our lives to follow Him or in himself in doing works the best he can?

1 Corinthans 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

[Xian-Pugilist]

That is supported.

Not supported: Romans 4:1-11

Paul discusses justification/salvation by faith vs works. James doesn't have the same discussion. Sorry, I'll try to help out here.. :)

James 2nd chapter use of "faith without works" was addressing a different kind of faith: as in faith in His Providence:

No it wasn't.

it was never about the faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation.

This is true. Also irrelevant to my claim.

James addressed how the church would verbally state their faith in His Providence to the departing poor to be warmed and to be filled as if by saying it, they are exercising their faith in God's Providence to the poor without meeting from the bounty collected at the church, any of the immediate needs of the poor that were perishing from the elements and starvation. It is that kind of faith that does not profit the poor nor save the poor. So this was not about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, but leading by example of that faith that the church claim to have in His Providence to the departing poor.

James is stating that if you have faith, your faith will manifest in works. The example of Abraham was, had he stayed on the ground at the base of the mountain and not taken his son to the top, we would not be upholding him as the patron of faith because his works said other wise. James is justifying his faith, by his works, NOT his salvation.

That has little to do with works and salvation. EXCEPT, that if you are missing the works, had abe not gone up the mountain with his son for a sacrifice, you don't have faith.

So, you are saved by Grace, THROUGH FAITH, and not by works.

BUT if you have faith you will HAVE works.
THUS if you don't have works, you don't have the faith,
for you were saved to do those works,
If you don't have faith,, you can't have grace.
If you don't have grace you can claim to be saved til you die and you'll still burn.

If you need the verses for everyline before you disagree again, I"ll provide upon request.

James did reference Abraham in regards to the offer of Isaac as a sacrifice in referring to that faith he was writing about in regards to His providence. Jehovah-jireh was the name of the place of what Abraham and Jews refer to in regards to the testimony in Gebesis 22nd chapter of how God provides for His servant as in "God will see to it".

So "faith without works" was referring to any believer or church "verbalizing their faith in His Providence" and yet fail to lead by example of their faith in His Providence. It is that kind of faith when verbalizing that faith to the poor that does not "profit" the poor nor "save" them when the poor are about to perish from the elements.

Sorry. It doesn't fly. ALTHOUGH, this is the best, short of being right, argument I've seen. Never heard the providence application. But, in the picture of this post, your providence picture fits within my summary, my summary doesn't fit within your providence picture.

[Xian-Pugilist]

It is by continuing in His words that we abide in Him to bear fruit so that our joy may be full. Will not our love abound more and more in the knowledge of Him? Yes. Of course.

Your position is that you can learn to love by reading a book. Incredible.
What book does a mother read to love her child?
Scripture says it's through application, through works, not words that you are made spiritually mature. The fact you didn't bother to check my work, or ask for the verse tells me all I need here, you don't care what it says, just what you can say it says.

One can be so involved in works that when questioned of his faith, he is offended because of the word. We grow as His disciples by continuing in His words in learning of Him.

If a person is obsessing over their works they have missed the boat anyway. Regardless, if a person has faith, they will have works.

That is how we have roots to withstand the storms of life and the heat of persecution when we turn to our Good Shepherd for help and to His words for reproofs we need in keeping the faith which is the good fight.

No sir, to withstand you go through trials and tribulations, life, they make you stronger. Reading a book doesn't put you through many trials/tribs. Until you get off your butt and apply what you were taught you can't be tried, you can't grow.

If we remember how He will bring us Home:

He can take you without you knowing, or remembering. You really think we are much more important than I can imagine since you are saying we need to KNOW things for HIM to do what HE will do. Whatever happened to blessed is the poor in Spirit? That pretty much counters your "what we must know" theology. At least after you break down the words...

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Here is the difference in you and scripture.... notice Paul says " what you have heard"? That's because He taught the Church was to teach the people, not the people teach themselves. And the church was to teach them works of service, not theology. I mean, if your views were biblical, agree or not I'd roll over, but, they aren't. They are working to deny scripture.

Then by recognizing the new reality of our life in Christ:

Paul says you won't recognize, or shouldn't pay heed to it, but the reality PAUL discusses is real and not just reasoned book smarts.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We are now in a relationship with God that we can call Him Father.

Scripture says if you are in that relationship you no longer sin. I think you claim things before you actually have them, personally.

Thanks to Jesus Christ, we can get to know God personally by learning of the Son, the Bridegroom.

Why are you talking about HIM when it's what YOU MUST LEARN that gets it done....

Thus the race we are running is not about doing works as proof of salvation,

You need to read slower. No one said it would. Perhaps less knee jerking, more shutting up long enough to read what was said before you have to say something in response.

It all boils down to where the believer's hope rests in: Jesus Christ and His workmanship in our lives to follow Him or in himself in doing works the best he can?

Do you think both the meat, and the milk consumers are saved?
What do you think the difference is between the milk and meat people?

1 Corinthans 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.....29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

You really should have read the ephesians 4 vss before you typed an answer.

[37818]

Xian-Pugilist & Enow,

Ok, what was the point of disagreement?

[Ephesians 2:8, 9, 10, James 2: Genesis 15:6, & Genesis 22.)

[Xian-Pugilist]

That is a rhetorical q, yes?

[Enow]

Paul discusses justification/salvation by faith vs works. James doesn't have the same discussion. Sorry, I'll try to help out here.. :)

Your post #2 does not deferentiate.

No it wasn't.....

Sorry. It doesn't fly. ALTHOUGH, this is the best, short of being right, argument I've seen. Never heard the providence application. But, in the picture of this post, your providence picture fits within my summary, my summary doesn't fit within your providence picture

I believe there is a necessity to apply James rightly. May God help us to clarify this issue.

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

The chapter begins regarding the church's mistreatment towards the poor, favouring the rich. It got so bad that after service, the church would verbally voice their faith in God's Providence to the departing poor "to be warmed and to be filled" to get out of helping the poor. The church was not willing to show any mercy but judged the poor as unworthy.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Do note that to say "to be warmed and to be filled" is akin to voicing faith in God to someone in saying "to be healed" as if saying their faith to them that God will do it.

So in context, James was reproving the church's use of applying faith verbally to the departing poor without any mercy being given them, but judgment for being poor.

James reference of Abraham's faith with works follows suit:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If we go to that Jewish reference in Genesis to see the point of the reference to the type of faith given by works, we read this account for what the Jews & the Bible noted it for:

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.....

That is what Abraham said to his son and this is what had happened next:

Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

What they called that place, even to this day is the significant point of reference to what James was referring to: Jehovahjireh is testifying that God will see to it: He will provide.

The Jews knew what that point of reference was for and in context to the church's mistreatment of the poor and using such "benediction" of applying faith in God's Providence to the departing poor to be warmed and to be filled in getting out of helping the poor, James was reproving the church that such faith in the eyes of the poor is profitless to the poor being without an example set by the church, as it would hardly save the poor from the element and starvation for which the church said to them "to be warmed and to be filled" for.

So when you refer to the faith in salvation in regards to grace and then works would follow and then without works, the faith is dead.... you had ventured away from the faith in salvation. That is why your summary needed clarification, otherwise, grace has ceased and believers are trying to finish by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit.

We are to be careful to maintain good works:

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But the moment that faith is dead, because there are no works, then that is no longer the faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation, and thus not the gospel of grace we testify of.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Those were the verses that followed verse 8 mentioned previously about maintaining good works, and yet it is significant that this kind of faith cannot be identified by our works, but His finished work on the cross.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That is why this saving faith in Jesus Christ is without works:

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Thus the necessity to clarify your summary that saving faith is indeed without works.

Proverbs 27:17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Voicing faith in His Providence to others requires believers to lead by example.

[37818]

Matthew is functionally following Jewish fables of a tribal superhero rendered in English as "Messiah".

This assertion is based on what?

There are rewords for the saved according to Christian teachings. But salvation is never a matter of doing good works by the same teachings. (see Romans 4:5. Romans 11:6. Ephesians 2:8-10. Romans 2:6. 2 Corinthians 5:10, 11. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.)

[Xian-Pugilist]

Your post #2 does not deferentiate.

One thing I've learned, don't publish long exegesis to the fundy neo cons, they won't read it anyway. THUS I offered to defend with scripture at request, and it's not be requested, you ride on presupposition instead.

I believe there is a necessity to apply James rightly. May God help us to clarify this issue.

That's what I did, I'm glad you agree with my approach. :}

James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

The chapter begins regarding the church's mistreatment towards the poor, favouring the rich.

There were no chapters to the author. Don't start in the middle and your problem is fixed, go back to the first chapter, first verse and get it in its entirety. Fair enough?

The whole of the letter is bounced around faith. You have to go out of your way and cherry pick to get into chapter two to begin your exegesis. That's just flat out inappropriate, or deliberate cherry picking.

It got so bad that after service, the church would verbally voice their faith in God's Providence to the departing poor "to be warmed and to be filled" to get out of helping the poor. The church was not willing to show any mercy but judged the poor as unworthy.

And people wore sandals, and didn't have underwear on, and lots of other things, so what. You use your anecdotal theory to define what is written in scripture, instead of what is written to define interpretation. That's a big fat case of good ole eisegesis, bub.

So in context, James was reproving the church's use of applying faith verbally to the departing poor without any mercy being given them, but judgment for being poor.

And his answer was, if you have faith, it will manifest in works. Nothing in your silliness changes the fact, if you have faith, that faith will manifest in works. Period. That's my claim. If you have faith, it will manifest in works. DO YOU DENY that if you have faith, it will manifest in acting upon it?

James reference of Abraham's faith with works follows suit:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Stop here, pause... we are discussing faith and works. Abraham was justified by his works. HIS FAITH WAS PROVEN BY HIS WORKS of going up the mountain with his son, not knowing HOW God would keep His word.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This corroborates my claim.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How does that disagree with anything I have said. Answer, it duddn't.

If we go to that Jewish reference in Genesis to see the point of the reference to the type of faith given by works, we read this account for what the Jews & the Bible noted it for:

Abraham was promised by God that His son would father many nations.
Abraham was told/commanded by God to go sacrifice his son.
Abraham trusted God.
Abrham knew / believed God would keep His promise.
Abraham marched up the Hill anyway. Faith was justified, or proven, by his works.

If he had not faith, he would have not marched up the hill.
If he claimed faith, but didn't march up the hill he's a damned liar.
He went up the hill, trusting, proving his faith. HE ACTED UPON HIS FAITH.

That is what Abraham said to his son and this is what had happened next:
What they called that place, even to this day is the significant point of reference to what James was referring to: Jehovahjireh is testifying that God will see to it: He will provide.

And changes nothing to what I've said and claimed.

The Jews knew what that point of reference was for and in context to the church's mistreatment of the poor and using such "benediction" of applying faith in God's Providence to the departing poor to be warmed and to be filled in getting out of helping the poor, James was reproving the church that such faith in the eyes of the poor is profitless to the poor being without an example set by the church, as it would hardly save the poor from the element and starvation for which the church said to them "to be warmed and to be filled" for.

Look, the word AGAPAO means emotion with actions attached. Acted upon emotion. Without the action it might be phileo but it's not agapao. YOu cant' love neighbor, without doing the works. Your dance up here changes nothing. If you have faith you will have works. The works are as Paul described in Gal 5:6. Acts of love through faith. OR as JEsus described in the last parable in matt 25, the ones heaven bound, not only knew the shepherd but represented him as well in their works.

So when you refer to the faith in salvation in regards to grace and then works would follow and then without works, the faith is dead.... you had ventured away from the faith in salvation.

Omg, you can't tear works out of grace. Any works you do is from the same grace as salvation comes from. It's like separating the heads from the tails and claiming it's still worth a quarter.

IF you accept Grace, you do that through faith. If you have faith, you have works. If your faith doesn't result in works, it's not faith that will bring you grace.

In this instance, Grace is Grace. You don't save yourself.
You don't do the works yourself. Or would you contend it was Moses that parted the red sea and not God?

That is why your summary needed clarification, otherwise, grace has ceased and believers are trying to finish by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit.

You just need to red slower, and with a mindset you might actually pick up a new thought, if you aren't so busy searching for any boat in a storm to dismiss something.

We are to be careful to maintain good works:

BS good works are what you were saved for, it's what God trains you to do, it's what he changes you to do, it's not something that is about you and your "be careful to maintain" it's a result of HIM being in your life adn doing them through you. YOU ARE THE INSTRUMENT, HE IS THE GARDENER!.

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Eph 4:11-17 through works of love, you grow in spiritual maturity to be as mature as CHRIST. IF you dont' think works are important, you are missing the boat and should take all scripture and stop the cherry picking.

But the moment that faith is dead, because there are no works, then that is no longer the faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation, and thus not the gospel of grace we testify of.

You didn't read what I said, nor how I said it very closely. Your comment here doesn't even apply to it.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Reconcile that with gal 5:6 and eph 4 above.

[QUOTE=Enow;3466202]
Those were the verses that followed verse 8 mentioned previously about maintaining good works, and yet it is significant that this kind of faith cannot be identified by our works, but His finished work on the cross.[/qoute]

I'm going to go above and beyond. PAUL DISCUSSES FAITH LEADING TO JUSTIFICATION/SALVATION, NOT works.

JAMES discusses that FAITH is JUSTIFIED by works. You need to learn the word Justified. In both cases it means the same thing, but isn't discussing the same thing.

IF YOU HAVE FAITH, it's proven or justified by the works it produces. NOT that you execute, that IT produces. IT RESULTS in works. JAMES says that is natural and to not have those works to back up your faith means there aren't any parts of faith.

PAUL says that you can't get to heaven on works.
James says nothing about getting to heaven, his comments deal SOLELY with if your claim to have faith is substantiated.

THUS, (please read slowly...)

Salvation is by GRACE through faith, not works so no man can boast.
(if you don't have faith, how are you going to get grace?)

James says if you have faith, the faith will result in works in your life. SAME AS ABRAHAM trusted GOD, or had faith, and walked up the mountain knowing God was apparently contradicting Himself and trusting GOD to provide. THE TRUST/FAITH wouldn't be claimable had he hid his son instead of going up the mountain.

IF you don't have works, you don't have faith.

Without faith, you don't have Grace.

Without grace you aren't saved.

It doesn't say that works save you in any fashion.
It says if you are saved you'll have works.

And if there are NO WORKS in your life, you most likely aren't saved, although God is big....

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That is why this saving faith in Jesus Christ is without works:

Wait. This is pointless so I'm not going to go into conversation, but....

1) prsent them holy and unblameable... requires them to be changed. That is the change in eph 4 where they are MADE, not just looked upon, as mature as Christ was. NOT considered as mature as Christ was spiritually, but MADE AS MATURE.

2) That comes through works which are often trials and tribulations, which is how you are REDISCIPLINED to learn a new lifestyle. (if you need vss ask.)

3) If you don't do the works you aren't matured.

You think it's all about salvation don't you? That's why you keep putting maturation verses as if they were salvation vss??? No wonder it makes no sense to you...... It's like talkign colors to a blind man.

I'll back out.

Sorry for assuming.....

[Enow]

And if there are NO WORKS in your life, you most likely aren't saved, although God is big....

Since he has backed out, I will comment on his point: procrastinating people who happened to be fortunate enough to call on the Lord on their deathbed to save them will be saved. although no works has accompanied that person's salvation before that person dies.

1) prsent them holy and unblameable... requires them to be changed. That is the change in eph 4 where they are MADE, not just looked upon, as mature as Christ was. NOT considered as mature as Christ was spiritually, but MADE AS MATURE.

No. That reference in Colossians 1:20-23 does not require us to change when He is the One presenting us faultless. If any change comes in regards to that reference is to acknowledge what God has done and walk humbly with thy God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Corinthians 1: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Recognizing the new reality of Christ being in us is the call to run the race in being His disciples to bear fruit and not lose our full reward of attending the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honour in His House.

Let's say that there are no works. Will there be accountability? Yes. But it does not mean they are not saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.....

One should consider not building pride by works since we are the works of His hands. He is teh One enabling us to serve Him and to follow Him by faith in the Son of God.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

So that is why if one looks to works as proof of salvation: do note, we are to do good works, but if one looks to works as proof of salvation, then one is not living by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

How many have heard other believers judging backsliding believers or former believers as if they were never saved, judging as in comdemning them by their works? It is because they had believed and that they are saved is the reason why we are to correct them in Christ's love and excommunicate them from the assembly if they are nonrepentant.

So if one works as if to prove salvation, then one is doing it out of debt.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It is important to not divide our hope on Jesus Christ with works as proof for our salvation. The fact that we believe is a work of God that proves we are saved, but this is not a license to live in sin: far from it.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It is the fact that this is true below that we are saved:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Shows the new reality in Christ that we have a reconciled relationship with God now through Jesus Christ and that in order to be His disciple is by continuing in His words in proving you are His disciples in serving Him and not being a slave to sin: not for proving you are saved.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free....36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Xian-Pugilist]

Since he has backed out, I will comment on his point: procrastinating people who happened to be fortunate enough to call on the Lord on their deathbed to save them will be saved. although no works has accompanied that person's salvation before that person dies.

OMG you can't resist.

Nothing I said even addressed a death bed conversion. It has nothing to do with anything I said either. It interferes with nothing I said. It's a total non sequitur.

Since you don't want me to back out, I'll stay. :| I just didn't want to pick on you and your lack of education on the points.

Nothing in what you said below addresses my arguments either. You just deny them and repeat the same thoughts you had to start with. That isn't argumentation, that is repetition.

There is salvation where God considers you clean.

There is maturation where God makes you clean.

The fact yo uare obsessed with salvation pretty much shows you are a far cry from mature and may never get there since you won't even acknowledge it's something to exist.

No. That reference in Colossians 1:20-23 does not require us to change when He is the One presenting us faultless. If any change comes in regards to that reference is to acknowledge what God has done and walk humbly with thy God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Corinthians 1: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Recognizing the new reality of Christ being in us is the call to run the race in being His disciples to bear fruit and not lose our full reward of attending the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honour in His House.

Let's say that there are no works. Will there be accountability? Yes. But it does not mean they are not saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.....

One should consider not building pride by works since we are the works of His hands. He is teh One enabling us to serve Him and to follow Him by faith in the Son of God.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

So that is why if one looks to works as proof of salvation: do note, we are to do good works, but if one looks to works as proof of salvation, then one is not living by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

How many have heard other believers judging backsliding believers or former believers as if they were never saved, judging as in comdemning them by their works? It is because they had believed and that they are saved is the reason why we are to correct them in Christ's love and excommunicate them from the assembly if they are nonrepentant.

So if one works as if to prove salvation, then one is doing it out of debt.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It is important to not divide our hope on Jesus Christ with works as proof for our salvation. The fact that we believe is a work of God that proves we are saved, but this is not a license to live in sin: far from it.

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It is the fact that this is true below that we are saved:

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Shows the new reality in Christ that we have a reconciled relationship with God now through Jesus Christ and that in order to be His disciple is by continuing in His words in proving you are His disciples in serving Him and not being a slave to sin: not for proving you are saved.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free....36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.