Guacamole's off the cuff reactions to the God Delusion

[rogue06]

Interesting. I've usually read that Alexandria was noted for precisely the opposite-- that it was, since its establishment, a place where disparate religions came together. I've never heard it described as a "hotbed" of anti-Semitic feeling. I'd love to read more about that, if you have any sources which you could recommend.

The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-three Centuries of Antisemitism by Edward H. Flannery would be where I'd start. Antisemitism. A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution edited by Richard S. Levy has an entry by Sandra Gambetti called the "Alexandrian Pogrom" which is also very useful. She also has a book called The Alexandrian Riots of 38 C.E. and the Persecution of the Jews. A Historical Reconstruction

And as Adrift pointed out Philo of Alexandria mentions an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 AD in Flaccus where thousands of Jews were killed (see the work itself and Pieter Willem van der Horst's Philo's Flaccus: the First Pogrom. Van der Horst also has an article available called .

[guacamole]

And then Dawkins was right...

My off the cuff reaction to the rest of chapter 1, entitled "Undeserved Respect" is that Dawkins is largely correct in most of his assertions. I will point some interesting points he makes here for the sake of completeness, but a lot of what he says could be heard from the mouth of many different pundits.

This end of this chapter regards the kind of wide berth of deference that many, but especially the media, gives to religious topics.



Dawkins is probably correct about that. I think that, in general, people should rigorously examine their ideas. As a theist and a christian, I do not believe that God is offended by our asking probing questions. He gave us brains and made us capable of reason precisely because he wants us to be intellectually vigorous. That said, it is no sin to simply want to coast by in life and accept the pronouncements of the learned. It can lead to mistakes, but I respect that not everyone wants to examine things as deeply as I. Nevertheless, I want to encourage those looking for answers to look hard for answers.

Some of his critique strikes me as a little bit off. I think he's confusing our society's habit to create sanitized euphemism for everything, rather than just deferring to religious sensibilities when he writes,



I agree that "ethnic cleansing" was euphemistic in the case of the Shia-Sunni civil war, but I also think you'd have to be a half-wit to not realize that it was religious conflict. However, in the case of Isis attacking the Yezidis, this is both religious and ethnic cleansing, and in Bosnia, while there was a stark religious demarcation in the conflict, it was also a case of ethnic conflict as well--disparate communities with different histories, customs, beliefs, and languages were killing each other. It was accurate to call it ethnic cleansing. I just wish they would have called a spade and spade and gone with genocide. One of my pet issues is the medias' abetting of the governments on this. Of course the problem is that if you call it "genocide" and show "genocide," then people expect you to do something. Well, I guess some moral self-deception is important for all of us sometimes.

It's a good end to the chapter, with topics worth discussing -- like the heirarchy of rights--should religious freedom trump freedom of expression, etc. He illustrates some of these issues with a number of citations, for example about a kid wearing a t-shirt to school that read "Homosexuality is a sin, Islam is a lie, abortion is murder. Somethings are just black and white." He also wrote, in excellent detail--I learned several points I did not know--about the chaos surrounding the Dutch newspapers publishing cartoons about Mohammed, and about some other newspapers pouring fuel on the fire by reprinting the comics. My first reaction was outrage at the attempted acts of censorship, but Paul's encouragement to the Romans about proper Christian conduct also occurred to me: "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with all people." I suppose that really bothers me if I'm being honest about it, is the sheer belligerent churlishness of some who want to press their 'freedom of religion' and 'freedom of speech' and see how far they can get. Atheists, Christian, Mulsim, or otherwise, stop it.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Boxing Pythagoras]

The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-three Centuries of Antisemitism by Edward H. Flannery would be where I'd start. Antisemitism. A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution edited by Richard S. Levy has an entry by Sandra Gambetti called the "Alexandrian Pogrom" which is also very useful. She also has a book called The Alexandrian Riots of 38 C.E. and the Persecution of the Jews. A Historical Reconstruction

And as Adrift pointed out Philo of Alexandria mentions an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 AD in Flaccus where thousands of Jews were killed (see the work itself and Pieter Willem van der Horst's Philo's Flaccus: the First Pogrom. Van der Horst also has an article available called .

Thanks, I'll look into these. I was aware of the Pogrom in 38 CE, as well as Manetho's rewrite of Exodus. I was also aware that Jews were not able to receive the full benefits of citizenship due to the religious traditions inherent in Hellenic government, though I'm not sure how accurate it would be to classify such a thing as anti-Semitism.

[Andius]

Radical Nationalism like other revolutions in Europe.

Fair enough.

The undercurrent of anti-Semitism/anti-Jewish beliefs led to Jews being primary targets of ethnic cleansing and persecution. In Russia things do not change much when people took off the Orthodox cross and put on the sickle and hammer, then again when the winds changed they took off the sicle and hammer and put back on the Orthodox cross.

As Adrift adequately put, what does this have to do with the discussion of how or if atheism was a primary motive for purging religiosity in a given society?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

That said, it is no sin to simply want to coast by in life and accept the pronouncements of the learned.

Even if those "pronouncements of the learned" are not Christian-- or even theist?

[guacamole]

Even if those "pronouncements of the learned" are not Christian-- or even theist?

Indeed. I am knowingly heterodox to most serious thinkers on this. Partially, because all of this back and forth between serious intelligent people, and their pale imitators on places like t-web, myself included, are so much tempest in a Neptunian Teapot for all the actual good they do. I'd rather people be good than be smart. Being smart sometimes helps with goodness, and sometimes, I hesitate to say often, does not.

[shunyadragon]

The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-three Centuries of Antisemitism by Edward H. Flannery would be where I'd start. Antisemitism. A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution edited by Richard S. Levy has an entry by Sandra Gambetti called the "Alexandrian Pogrom" which is also very useful. She also has a book called The Alexandrian Riots of 38 C.E. and the Persecution of the Jews. A Historical Reconstruction

And as Adrift pointed out Philo of Alexandria mentions an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 AD in Flaccus where thousands of Jews were killed (see the work itself and Pieter Willem van der Horst's Philo's Flaccus: the First Pogrom. Van der Horst also has an article available called .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

[Adrift]

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

But again, even if this were true (it isn't), doesn't your prophet expect/condone this?

Source: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh by Bahá’u’lláh

and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.

© Copyright Original Source

[Doug Shaver]

Do the new Atheists really believe that we'd live in some kind of Utopia without religion?

I don't know and I don't care. There is nothing new about my atheism, and I don't believe for a minute that people would suddenly starting being nice to each other if they only stopped being religious.

Haven't we tried this in the former Communist states?

I don't think so.

Anyone who wants to dispute that the murderous Communist regimes of the Twentieth Century were not atheistic should try some google fu.

I'm not denying that those Communist regimes were run by atheists. I deny that the leaders' atheism had anything to do with their being murderous.

[Posted before reading any further in this thread. Apologies for any repetition of comments.]

[shunyadragon]

But again, even if this were true (it isn't), doesn't your prophet expect/condone this?

Source: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh by Bahá’u’lláh

and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.

© Copyright Original Source

Ducks, Bobs and Weaves avoid the reality of 2000+ years of history. The above has been repeatedly responded to in another thread. The Baha'i Faith has never advocated oppression of Jews as the history of Christiaiity has done, ie Martin Luther.

The issue is the actual history of violent ethnic cleansing, and persecution of Jews since Constantine, again . . .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

[Adrift]

Ducks, Bobs and Weaves avoid the reality of 2000+ years of history. The above has been repeatedly responded to in another thread. The Baha'i Faith has never advocated oppression of Jews as the history of Christiaiity has done, ie Martin Luther.

The issue is the actual history of violent ethnic cleansing, and persecution of Jews since Constantine, again . . .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

Why are you so upset with Christians for what your very own Baha'i prophet said that the Jews deserved for not accepting Jesus?

[shunyadragon]

Why are you so upset with Christians for what your very own Baha'i prophet said that the Jews deserved for not accepting Jesus?

Not upset.

Ducks, Bobs and Weaves avoid the reality of 2000+ years of history. The above has been repeatedly responded to in another thread. The Baha'i Faith has never advocated oppression of Jews as the history of Christiaitity has done, ie Martin Luther.

The issue is the actual history of violent ethnic cleansing, and persecution of Jews since Constantine, again . . .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

There is nothing in citation that would indicate that the Jews deserved the 'physical persecution, ethnic cleansing. In the Baha'i Faith it refers to a spirtual state and consequences, not physical.

[Adrift]

Not upset.

Ducks, Bobs and Weaves avoid the reality of 2000+ years of history. The above has been repeatedly responded to in another thread. The Baha'i Faith has never advocated oppression of Jews as the history of Christiaiity has done, ie Martin Luther.

The issue is the actual history of violent ethnic cleansing, and persecution of Jews since Constantine, again . . .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

[seer]

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.

First Shuny, Christians did not persecute Jews for two thousand years, and second not all Christians persecuted Jews.

[shunyadragon]

Not upset.

Ducks, Bobs and Weaves avoid the reality of 2000+ years of history. The above has been repeatedly responded to in another thread. The Baha'i Faith has never advocated oppression of Jews as the history of Christiaiity has done, ie Martin Luther.

The issue is the actual history of violent ethnic cleansing, and persecution of Jews since Constantine, again . . .

Adrift pointing out does not help, Christians tool on the torch of vengeance, persecution and diligent efforts at ethnic cleansing for 2000+ years.