Guacamole's off the cuff reactions to the God Delusion

[shunyadragon]

First Shuny, Christians did not persecute Jews for two thousand years, and second not all Christians persecuted Jews.

Never said, ALL Christians persecuted Jews, but yes Christians persecucted Jews, and were involved in ethnic cleansing. Read Martin Luther.

[seer]

Never said, ALL Christians persecuted Jews, but yes Christians persecucted Jews, and were involved in ethnic cleansing. Read Martin Luther.

You said it was for two thousand years - that was a lie. And your own prophet said that their persecution (torment) was basically a judgement from God. So Luther was only doing the will of God. You believe your prophet don't you?

[shunyadragon]

You said it was for two thousand years - that was a lie. And your own prophet said that their persecution (torment) was basically a judgement from God. So Luther was only doing the will of God. You believe your prophet don't you?

The quote never said the torment was persecution. In the Baha'i writings it is specific and clear; Judgement from God is not in this life. You and others are misrepresenting a selective quote for your own agenda.

Yes, it is for 2000 years since Constantine. Of course, I do not believe Martin Luther represented the will of God, but it did clearly represent the view of many if not most European Christians, and his recommendations concerning Jews were carried out. The passion plays of Europe, unfounded blood-libel myths, and the description of Jews as 'Christ killers' represent clear motivations to persecute, and ethnically cleanse Jews from Europe.

The target of the Crusades also included Jews.

Source: http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-first-crusade/

The First Crusade was almost exclusively French. In fact, they were called the Frankish knights. They despoiled the great Jewish communities of Speyers, Worms and Mainz. Besides the thousands of Jews killed, others thousands were forcibly converted.

It was the first time in Europe that there was a mass forcible conversion of Jews. This would also set the stage for the Spanish Inquisition. The choice was given to a Jew to convert or be martyred.

The Church itself viewed the matter ambivalently. It really depended on the local bishop or cardinal. Some of them, such as in the city of Cologne, tried to protect the Jews. Some bishops were killed because they protected the Jews. However, some clergy looked the other way or even extorted money from the Jews on the premise of promising protection — and upon receiving the money gave them up to the mob.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cru1.htm

By the end of the crusades, most European Christians believed the unfounded blood-libel myths -- the rumor that Jews engaged in human sacrifice of Christian children. A long series of Christian persecutions of the Jews continued in Europe and Russia into the 20th century. They laid the foundation for the Nazi Holocaust.

The result of centuries of conflict among followers of the three main Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) was a "deep mutual hatred" and mistrust among the three faiths. Memories of these genocides still influence relationships among Jews, Christians and Muslims to the present time.

Among many Jews and Muslims, the term crusade evokes visions of genocide, mass murder, and mass extermination of innocent people.

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

The quote never said the torment was persecution. In the Baha'i writings it is specific and clear; Judgement from God is not in this life. You and others are misrepresenting a selective quote for your own agenda.

Yes, it is for 2000 years since Constantine. Of course, I do not believe Martin Luther represented the will of God, but it did clearly represent the view of many if not most European Christians, and his recommendations concerning Jews were carried out. The passion plays of Europe, unfounded blood-libel myths, and the description of Jews as 'Christ killers' represent clear motivations to persecute, and ethnically cleanse Jews from Europe.

Again you are lying, Constantine did not live two thousand years ago and what exactly did he do to the Jews, and you are lying about the quote. God HAS, God HAS - past tense, it is not a future judgement and you know it and you are deceiving again.

Thus hath (HAS) God laid hold of them for their sins, hath (HAS)extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.

[shunyadragon]

Again you are lying, Constantine did not live two thousand years ago and what exactly did he do to the Jews, and you are lying about the quote. God HAS, God HAS - past tense, it is not a future judgement and you know it and you are deceiving again.

OK 1800 years, so what?!?!!? It does not change history. Still no response concerning the facts of history. Again . . . read Martin Luther, and the facts of history. You cannot rewrite history.

God's judgement remains in spiritual not physical sense, and there is not temporal consideration, because 'has' here denotes past, present and future, and the eternal nature of God's spiritual judgement. Selective citations to justify your agenda does not work.

[seer]

OK 1800 years, so what?!?!!? It does not change history. Still no response concerning the facts of history. Again . . . read Martin Luther, and the facts of history. You cannot rewrite history.

Constantine did not live 1,800 years ago! And what did he do to Jews? The fact is what you are speaking of did not really start until the Middle ages, it wasn't happening for two thousand years.

God's judgement remains in spiritual not physical sense, and there is not temporal consideration, because 'has' here denotes past, present and future, and the eternal nature of God's spiritual judgement. Selective citations to justify your agenda does not work.

So God is still tormenting them, past present and future.

[Adrift]

God's judgement remains in spiritual not physical sense, and there is not temporal consideration, because 'has' here denotes past, present and future, and the eternal nature of God's spiritual judgement. Selective citations to justify your agenda does not work.

No, it's definitely physical in the Baha'i faith. So Shoghi Effendi in his Warning to All Nations if they "persecute the appointed Channels and Embodiments of Divine authority and power":

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-25.html

A Warning Unto All Nations

This horde of degraded priests, stigmatized by Bahá’u’lláh as “doctors of doubt,” as the “abject manifestations of the Prince of Darkness,” as “wolves” and “pharaohs,” as “focal centers of hellish fire,” as “voracious beasts preying upon the carrion of the souls of men,” and, as testified by their own traditions, as both the sources and victims of mischief, have joined the various swarms of sháh-zádihs, of emirs, and princelings of fallen dynasties—a witness and a warning unto all nations of what must, sooner or later, befall those wielders of earthly dominion, be it royal or ecclesiastic, who might dare to challenge or persecute the appointed Channels and Embodiments of Divine authority and power.

Islám, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty years, have, “at every moment tormented with a fresh torment” Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald—Himself a Manifestation of God—to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.

© Copyright Original Source

Here he goes on and explains how WWII was caused by God's righteous anger towards those who did not accept his Messengers:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/MA/ma-60.html

THE ANGER OF GOD AND HIS CORRECTION

The internecine struggle, now engulfing the generality of mankind, is increasingly assuming, in its range and ferocity, the proportions of the titanic upheaval foreshadowed as far back as seventy years ago by Bahá’u’lláh. It can be viewed in no other light except as a direct interposition by Him Who is the Ordainer of the Universe, the Judge of all men and the Deliverer of the nations. It is the rod of both the anger of God and of His correction. The fierceness of its devastating power chastens the children of men for their refusal to acclaim the century-old Message of their promised, their Heaven-sent Redeemer. The fury of its flames, on the other hand, purges away the dross, and welds the limbs of humanity into one single organism, indivisible, purified, God-conscious and divinely directed.

. . .

The races of the world, Nordic, Slavonic, Mongolian, Arab and African, are alike subjected to its consuming violence. The world’s religious systems are no less affected by the universal paralysis which is creeping over the minds and souls of men. The persecution of world Jewry, the rapid deterioration of Christian institutions, the intestine division and disorders of Islám, are but manifestations of the fear and trembling that has seized humanity in its hour of unprecedented turmoil and peril. On the high seas, in the air, on land, in the forefront of battle, in the palaces of kings and the cottages of peasants, in the most hallowed sanctuaries, whether secular or religious, the evidences of God’s retributive act and mysterious discipline are manifest. Its heavy toll is steadily mounting—a holocaust sparing neither prince nor peasant, neither man nor woman, neither young nor old.

© Copyright Original Source

And ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in his The Promulgation of Universal Peace:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-121.html

9 November 1912
Talk at Home of Mr. and Mrs. Arthur J. Parsons
1700 Eighteenth Street, NW, Washington, D. C.

What harm could result if the Jews were in a similar attitude toward Christianity, declaring that Christ was the Word of God, that the Gospel is the Book of God? Such an attitude as this would cause the enmity of many centuries to pass away. . . . Consider the grandeur and majesty of Jesus in contrast with such men as we have mentioned. Consider Him from the standpoint of fame and renown. Where is the station of Christ, and where is their station? What comparison is there? In reality, Christ is incomparable. What harm, then, could come from your declaration that Jesus of Nazareth was a great man of Israelitish birth and, therefore, we love Him? That we have given to the world a great man indeed? That this mighty Personage, Whose Word has spread throughout the world, Who has conquered the East and the West, was an Israelite? Should you not be proud of Him? When you glorify and honor the memory of Christ, rest assured that the Christians will take your hands in real fellowship. All difficulty, hesitancy and restraint will vanish. Consider the troubles and persecutions heaped upon you in Russia for your fanaticism of unbelief. And you must not think that this is ended.

This humiliation will continue forever. The time may come when in Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. But your declaration that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble. My advice is that in order to become honorable, protected and secure among the nations of the world, in order that the Christians may love and safeguard the Israelitish people, you should be willing to announce your belief in Christ, the Word of God. This is a complete statement; there is nothing more. Is it not thoughtless, ignorant prejudice which restrains you from doing so? Declare that, verily, the Word of God was realized in Him, and all will be right

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

No, it's definitely physical in the Baha'i faith. So Shoghi Effendi in his Warning to All Nations if they "persecute the appointed Channels and Embodiments of Divine authority and power":

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-25.html

A Warning Unto All Nations

This horde of degraded priests, stigmatized by Bahá’u’lláh as “doctors of doubt,” as the “abject manifestations of the Prince of Darkness,” as “wolves” and “pharaohs,” as “focal centers of hellish fire,” as “voracious beasts preying upon the carrion of the souls of men,” and, as testified by their own traditions, as both the sources and victims of mischief, have joined the various swarms of sháh-zádihs, of emirs, and princelings of fallen dynasties—a witness and a warning unto all nations of what must, sooner or later, befall those wielders of earthly dominion, be it royal or ecclesiastic, who might dare to challenge or persecute the appointed Channels and Embodiments of Divine authority and power.

Islám, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty years, have, “at every moment tormented with a fresh torment” Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald—Himself a Manifestation of God—to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.

© Copyright Original Source

Here he goes on and explains how WWII was caused by God's righteous anger towards those who did not accept his Messengers:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/MA/ma-60.html

THE ANGER OF GOD AND HIS CORRECTION

The internecine struggle, now engulfing the generality of mankind, is increasingly assuming, in its range and ferocity, the proportions of the titanic upheaval foreshadowed as far back as seventy years ago by Bahá’u’lláh. It can be viewed in no other light except as a direct interposition by Him Who is the Ordainer of the Universe, the Judge of all men and the Deliverer of the nations. It is the rod of both the anger of God and of His correction. The fierceness of its devastating power chastens the children of men for their refusal to acclaim the century-old Message of their promised, their Heaven-sent Redeemer. The fury of its flames, on the other hand, purges away the dross, and welds the limbs of humanity into one single organism, indivisible, purified, God-conscious and divinely directed.

. . .

The races of the world, Nordic, Slavonic, Mongolian, Arab and African, are alike subjected to its consuming violence. The world’s religious systems are no less affected by the universal paralysis which is creeping over the minds and souls of men. The persecution of world Jewry, the rapid deterioration of Christian institutions, the intestine division and disorders of Islám, are but manifestations of the fear and trembling that has seized humanity in its hour of unprecedented turmoil and peril. On the high seas, in the air, on land, in the forefront of battle, in the palaces of kings and the cottages of peasants, in the most hallowed sanctuaries, whether secular or religious, the evidences of God’s retributive act and mysterious discipline are manifest. Its heavy toll is steadily mounting—a holocaust sparing neither prince nor peasant, neither man nor woman, neither young nor old.

© Copyright Original Source

And ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in his The Promulgation of Universal Peace:

Source: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/pup-121.html

9 November 1912
Talk at Home of Mr. and Mrs. Arthur J. Parsons
1700 Eighteenth Street, NW, Washington, D. C.

What harm could result if the Jews were in a similar attitude toward Christianity, declaring that Christ was the Word of God, that the Gospel is the Book of God? Such an attitude as this would cause the enmity of many centuries to pass away. . . . Consider the grandeur and majesty of Jesus in contrast with such men as we have mentioned. Consider Him from the standpoint of fame and renown. Where is the station of Christ, and where is their station? What comparison is there? In reality, Christ is incomparable. What harm, then, could come from your declaration that Jesus of Nazareth was a great man of Israelitish birth and, therefore, we love Him? That we have given to the world a great man indeed? That this mighty Personage, Whose Word has spread throughout the world, Who has conquered the East and the West, was an Israelite? Should you not be proud of Him? When you glorify and honor the memory of Christ, rest assured that the Christians will take your hands in real fellowship. All difficulty, hesitancy and restraint will vanish. Consider the troubles and persecutions heaped upon you in Russia for your fanaticism of unbelief. And you must not think that this is ended.

This humiliation will continue forever. The time may come when in Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. But your declaration that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble. My advice is that in order to become honorable, protected and secure among the nations of the world, in order that the Christians may love and safeguard the Israelitish people, you should be willing to announce your belief in Christ, the Word of God. This is a complete statement; there is nothing more. Is it not thoughtless, ignorant prejudice which restrains you from doing so? Declare that, verily, the Word of God was realized in Him, and all will be right

© Copyright Original Source

Once again it is demonstrated that Shuny doesn't even understand his own religion! Good work Adrift!

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Constantine did not live 1,800 years ago! And what did he do to Jews? The fact is what you are speaking of did not really start until the Middle ages, it wasn't happening for two thousand years.

That's not quite true. There was certainly Christian persecution of Jews prior to the Middle Ages. For example, in the late 300's CE, there were several riots and acts of violence targeting the Jews in and around Alexandria. Quite famously, St. Cyril-- bishop of Alexandria-- acknowledged that Christians had gravely wronged these Jewish people, but declared that it would be immoral to require those Christians to compensate the Jews.

[seer]

That's not quite true. There was certainly Christian persecution of Jews prior to the Middle Ages. For example, in the late 300's CE, there were several riots and acts of violence targeting the Jews in and around Alexandria. Quite famously, St. Cyril-- bishop of Alexandria-- acknowledged that Christians had gravely wronged these Jewish people, but declared that it would be immoral to require those Christians to compensate the Jews.

No, two groups going at each other is not persecution. This is limited event, and I would need more info. There was really no systematic persecution of the Jews by Christians really until the Middle Ages - which was bad enough. This 2000 year thing is just more Shuny hyperbole.

[Adrift]

That's not quite true. There was certainly Christian persecution of Jews prior to the Middle Ages. For example, in the late 300's CE, there were several riots and acts of violence targeting the Jews in and around Alexandria. Quite famously, St. Cyril-- bishop of Alexandria-- acknowledged that Christians had gravely wronged these Jewish people, but declared that it would be immoral to require those Christians to compensate the Jews.

Eh, there's a little more to the story than that. Tension between Pagans, Jews, and Christians were coming to a boil for some time before that. The violence against the Jews reported by Cyril was preceded by the report offered by Athanasius of the attack against the Christian congregation by Jews and pagans led by the Prefect Philagrius.

Source: Encyclical letter by Athanasius

Thus was this notable appointment of Gregory brought about by the Arians, and such was the beginning of it. And what outrages he committed on his entry into Alexandria, and of what great evils that event has been the cause, you may learn both from our letters, and by enquiry of those who are sojourning among you. While the people were offended at such an unusual proceeding, and in consequence assembled in the churches, in order to prevent the impiety of the Arians from mingling itself with the faith of the Church, Philagrius, who has long been a persecutor of the Church and her virgins, and is now Prefect of Egypt, an apostate already, and a fellow-countryman of Gregory, a man too of no respectable character, and moreover supported by Eusebius and his fellows, and therefore full of zeal against the Church; this person, by means of promises which he afterwards fulfilled, succeeded in gaining over the heathen multitude, with the Jews and disorderly persons, and having excited their passions, sent them in a body with swords and clubs into the churches to attack the people.

What followed upon this it is by no means easy to describe: indeed it is not possible to set before you a just representation of the circumstances, nor even could one recount a small part of them without tears and lamentations. Have such deeds as these ever been made the subjects of tragedy among the ancients? or has the like ever happened before in time of persecution or of war? The church and the holy Baptistery were set on fire, and straightway groans, shrieks, and lamentations, were heard through the city; while the citizens in their indignation at these enormities, cried shame upon the governor, and protested against the violence used to them. For holy and undefiled virgins were being stripped naked, and suffering treatment which is not to be named and if they resisted, they were in danger of their lives. Monks were being trampled under foot and perishing; some were being hurled headlong; others were being destroyed with swords and clubs; others were being wounded and beaten. And oh! what deeds of impiety and iniquity have been committed upon the Holy Table! They were offering birds and pine cones in sacrifice, singing the praises of their idols, and blaspheming even in the very churches our Lord and Saviour Jesus-Christ, the Son of the living God. They were burning the books of Holy Scripture which they found in the church; and the Jews, the murderers of our Lord, and the godless heathen entering irreverently (O strange boldness!) the holy Baptistery, were stripping themselves naked, and acting such a disgraceful part, both by word and deed, as one is ashamed even to relate. Certain impious men also, following the examples set them in the bitterest persecutions, were seizing upon the virgins and ascetics by the hands and dragging them along, and as they were haling them, endeavoured to make them blaspheme and deny the Lord; and when they refused to do so, were beating them violently and trampling them under foot.

© Copyright Original Source

Theodoret also mentions similar persecution by a mixed Pagan and Jewish assembly against Christians around this time,

Source: Ecclesiastical History (Book IV)

At Alexandria, Athanasius the victorious, after all his struggles, each rewarded with a crown, received release from his labours and passed away to the life which knows no toil. Then Peter, a right excellent man, received the see. His blessed predecessor had first selected him, and every suffrage alike of the clergy and of men of rank and office concurred, and all the people strove to show their delight by their acclamations. He had shared the heavy labours of Athanasius; at home and abroad he had been ever at his side, and with him had undergone manifold perils. Wherefore the bishops of the neighbourhood hastened to meet; and those who dwelt in schools of ascetic discipline left them and joined the company, and all joined in begging that Peter might be chosen to succeed to the patriarchal chair of Athanasius.

No sooner had they seated him on the episcopal throne than the governor of the province assembled a mob of Greeks and Jews, surrounded the walls of the church, and bade Peter come forth, threatening him with exile if he refused. He thus acted on the plea that he was fulfilling the emperor's good pleasure by bringing those of opposite sentiments into trouble, but the truth was that he was carried away by his impious passion. For he was addicted to the service of the idols, and looked upon the storms which beset the Church as a season of brilliant festivity. The admirable Peter, however, when he beheld the unforeseen conflict, secretly withdrew, and embarked in a vessel bound for Rome.

© Copyright Original Source

The persecution and pogroms against the Jews absolutely should never have happened, and I severely question the faith of those who would harm and murder others in the name of Jesus, but at this early of a point, the story is a bit more complicated than how you put it I think.

[shunyadragon]

Constantine did not live 1,800 years ago! And what did he do to Jews? The fact is what you are speaking of did not really start until the Middle ages, it wasn't happening for two thousand years.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Judaism

Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

"It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[3]

© Copyright Original Source

So God is still tormenting them, past present and future.

That is up to God's judgement not mine.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Eh, there's a little more to the story than that. Tension between Pagans, Jews, and Christians were coming to a boil for some time before that. The violence against the Jews reported by Cyril was preceded by the report offered by Athanasius of the attack against the Christian congregation by Jews and pagans led by the Prefect Philagrius.

The persecution and pogroms against the Jews absolutely should never have happened, and I severely question the faith of those who would harm and murder others in the name of Jesus, but at this early of a point, the story is a bit more complicated than how you put it I think.

Oh, certainly. I wasn't pretending that I could convey the whole of the situation in a single, tiny post. The situation was certainly complicated, and there were certainly violent acts committed by Jews, as well. However, Cyril utilized the authority of the Church to usurp governmental power and institute actual persecution explicitly targeting the Jews, ejecting them from the city, confiscating their wealth, and turning a blind eye towards crimes committed against them by Alexandrian citizens. Not just the rioters or the criminals-- all Jews. Complications notwithstanding, it's rather difficult to argue that this cannot be considered persecution of the Jews by the Christian Church.

[seer]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Judaism

Theodoret's Ecclesiastical History records The Epistle of the Emperor Constantine, concerning the matters transacted at the Council, addressed to those Bishops who were not present:

"It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[3]

© Copyright Original Source

Well that is really no different than what your prophet said. And he said nothing about harming Jews.

That is up to God's judgement not mine.

And God made His judgment - He will torment Jews for rejecting Christ, you of course agree with His judgement.