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  • #31
    Call me a wuss, but I'd rather live in a secular liberal state ala Denmark, than as a dhimmi and potential martyr in an ISIS caliphate.

    While it's noble to desire martyrdom for Christ's sake, all Christian theologians going back more than a thousand years agree that seeking it is a bad thing. God is not obligated to grant you the graces to resist in those situations. There's a powerful legend from the early Roman Christians, that one young man wanted to be martyred and so began to evangelize some Centurions. Eventually, they had enough, took him prisoner, and tortured him. Finally, under the pain and duress which has lasted a long time, he cried out denying God's existence and at that exact moment, they chose to kill him.

    If you then say "Well yes, but Leonhard, imagine a persecuted Christianity, who under no choice of their own are struggling to survive. But who with God's grace manages to thrive none the less." Wouldn't you want that?

    And to that, I can say "Yes. I hope God graces us to weather whatever suffering and evil we face. Whether it's cold materialism or sadistic barbarians."

    But I don't presume to know God's plans.

    Secular state for me, please.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
      and you would be wrong JimL very wrong. True Chrsitian values say that all human beings deserved respect and that it is wrong to deny someone the right to practice their religion or not just because you don't like their values

      So JimL based on that would you rather live in an authoritarian leftist secular state that forces people to go against their core values only because the leftists disagree with said core values.
      Or the Christian based state that respects the right of all human beings to choose their core values. I.E people still able to have their ceremony celebrating a certain act(they believe is right) even if a cake baker does not bake the cake for that ceremony because it is in celebration of something that goes against her core value.

      no fudging JimL it is one or the other.the first one, the authoritarian If you don't have the correct core value your rights can be trampled on, or the second one democratic state that says I don't agree with you but respect your right to hold that core value and base your life practices on it as long as it does not trample on my right to life and liberty.
      You don't even know what an authoritarian state is if you think you are living in one here in the U.S. If you'd prefer a religous theocracy to the secular government of U.S. then you don't appreciate freedom.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        It is not either or, I think Christian ethics (which informed State laws for most of our history) are superior since they reflect God's law, but no man should be forced to worship - we are not Islam after all.
        So the one, either a secular liberal state or a christian theocracy, would be just as suitable to you as the other?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Call me a wuss, but I'd rather live in a secular liberal state ala Denmark, than as a dhimmi and potential martyr in an ISIS caliphate.

          While it's noble to desire martyrdom for Christ's sake, all Christian theologians going back more than a thousand years agree that seeking it is a bad thing. God is not obligated to grant you the graces to resist in those situations. There's a powerful legend from the early Roman Christians, that one young man wanted to be martyred and so began to evangelize some Centurions. Eventually, they had enough, took him prisoner, and tortured him. Finally, under the pain and duress which has lasted a long time, he cried out denying God's existence and at that exact moment, they chose to kill him.

          If you then say "Well yes, but Leonhard, imagine a persecuted Christianity, who under no choice of their own are struggling to survive. But who with God's grace manages to thrive none the less." Wouldn't you want that?

          And to that, I can say "Yes. I hope God graces us to weather whatever suffering and evil we face. Whether it's cold materialism or sadistic barbarians."

          But I don't presume to know God's plans.

          Secular state for me, please.
          DE made a similar point about martyrs...that no one would wish it, but I seem to remember reading a number of very early church martyrs who found glory in their martyrdom. Was it Clement, or Ignatius? I can't remember, but they seemed to be overconfident in their martyrdom. That's not to say that I would welcome my own martyrdom, but just that I think you might be surprised what some Christians would willing accept over something else.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            DE made a similar point about martyrs...that no one would wish it, but I seem to remember reading a number of very early church martyrs who found glory in their martyrdom. Was it Clement, or Ignatius? I can't remember, but they seemed to be overconfident in their martyrdom. That's not to say that I would welcome my own martyrdom, but just that I think you might be surprised what some Christians would willing accept over something else.
            I think it's very noble to be prepared for it. And at least, if it's vanity to desire martyrdom, then it's the smallest of all possible sins. I think though there's a difference between hoping that if you were put in such and such a position, that you'd bravely resist, or even having a hero fantasy of doing so, and with actually going about seeking it out, or wishing the world would be such that you might have to face it.

            Anyway, secular state for me.

            One like Denmark that is.

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            • #36
              I don't think there's a wrong answer.
              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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              • #37
                I'll just stay Home, thanks.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  I think it's very noble to be prepared for it. And at least, if it's vanity to desire martyrdom, then it's the smallest of all possible sins. I think though there's a difference between hoping that if you were put in such and such a position, that you'd bravely resist, or even having a hero fantasy of doing so, and with actually going about seeking it out, or wishing the world would be such that you might have to face it.
                  True, I just think they took to heart Matthew 5:11 ""Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me."

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    You don't even know what an authoritarian state is if you think you are living in one here in the U.S. If you'd prefer a religous theocracy to the secular government of U.S. then you don't appreciate freedom.
                    No Jiml if you don't like the description given of what a secular state that it is being practiced here in American where leftists are fine withsaying we don't like the value of this group has please government force them to follow our values yes we know they aren't forcing us to follow theirs in fact they are letting us have our ceremony in celebration something they think is wrong but we don't like it that they think it is wrong you need to force them to follow our value even though our lives or personal liberties are not in danger by their refusal too. It is you who do not appreciate freedom.

                    so it is back to me waiting for your answer to my question not the one you want to answer so you can pretend you don't want an authoritarian government that will do what you want it to. Force others to follow your values instead of respecting their freedom to follow theirs when they are stopping you from following yours.
                    Last edited by RumTumTugger; 02-10-2017, 08:36 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                      No Jiml if you don't like the description given of what a secular state that it is being practiced here in American where leftists are fine withsaying we don't like the value of this group has please government force them to follow our values yes we know they aren't forcing us to follow theirs in fact they are letting us have our ceremony in celebration something they think is wrong but we don't like it that they think it is wrong you need to force them to follow our value even though our lives or personal liberties are not in danger by their refusal too. It is you who do not appreciate freedom.

                      so it is back to me waiting for your answer to my question not the one you want to answer so you can pretend you don't want an authoritarian government that will do what you want it to. Force others to follow your values instead of respecting their freedom to follow theirs when they are stopping you from following yours.
                      RTT, you on the religious right want to deny gay people the right to marry and the federally benefits that go along with that right, so don't cry to me about how the government is authoritarian. You're the authoritarian. A secular government such as we have here in the U.S. has to balance the religious and civil rights of its diverse peoples. You are free to practice your religion and to believe whatever you want, but you are not free to impose those beliefs on society. As far as I know a christian, if he so desires, is free to open a christian bakery and only sell christian cakes, just like a christian novelty shop or a christian book store is free to sell only christian novelties or books, but they are not free to discriminate as to who they sell them to.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        RTT, you on the religious right want to deny gay people the right to marry and the federally benefits that go along with that right, so don't cry to me about how the government is authoritarian. You're the authoritarian. A secular government such as we have here in the U.S. has to balance the religious and civil rights of its diverse peoples. You are free to practice your religion and to believe whatever you want, but you are not free to impose those beliefs on society. As far as I know a christian, if he so desires, is free to open a christian bakery and only sell christian cakes, just like a christian novelty shop or a christian book store is free to sell only christian novelties or books, but they are not free to discriminate as to who they sell them to.
                        1. fighting against the redefinition of a word is not imposing your beliefs on society it is Just saying keep that word as it has alwasy been defined.
                        2. baking or not baking a cake for a ceremony is not imposing your belief or values on society creating laws that force people to go against hteir core values becaue you don't like said core values is imposing your belief on society.

                        and the lies of the leftist not withstanding that cake baker was not discriminating against that couple because they were gay heck she baked other cakes for them but because she refused to bake a cake for the ceremony celebrating something she that went against her core values the liberal leftists used the government in an authoritarian way to impose their values on that baker and society because they did not like the values espoused by the baker not because the gays were being discriminated against. That is a lie used to make it seem they were not doing what they were doing using the government to impose their values and beliefs on society.

                        protest all you want JimL those are the facts you leftists don't have anyy trouble asking the government to trample on other poeple liberties who's values you don't like. that is authoritarianism.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                          1. fighting against the redefinition of a word is not imposing your beliefs on society it is Just saying keep that word as it has alwasy been defined.
                          Oh I see, so you're just concerned about the word marriage itself? Well I'll let you in on a little secret RTT, nobody owns words, their meanings evolve, and people can use them in any fashion they wish to use them without asking your permission.

                          2. baking or not baking a cake for a ceremony is not imposing your belief or values on society creating laws that force people to go against hteir core values becaue you don't like said core values is imposing your belief on society.
                          Thats true, and no one is forcing christian bakeries to bake non christian cakes, but when a christian, Jew, Muslim etc etc. chooses to serve the general public, then they are by law forced not to discriminate. Its their choice.
                          and the lies of the leftist not withstanding that cake baker was not discriminating against that couple because they were gay heck she baked other cakes for them but because she refused to bake a cake for the ceremony celebrating something she that went against her core values the liberal leftists used the government in an authoritarian way to impose their values on that baker and society because they did not like the values espoused by the baker not because the gays were being discriminated against. That is a lie used to make it seem they were not doing what they were doing using the government to impose their values and beliefs on society.
                          So what, the ceremony and the celebration of it is legal and none of the bakers business. Baking a cake for it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.
                          protest all you want JimL those are the facts you leftists don't have anyy trouble asking the government to trample on other poeple liberties who's values you don't like. that is authoritarianism.
                          Again RTT, it is you who wants the government to deny a certain class of people the same rights under the law, the rights to marriage and the benefits thereof, that you as a christian are afforded.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Thats true, and no one is forcing christian bakeries to bake non christian cakes, but when a christian, Jew, Muslim etc etc. chooses to serve the general public, then they are by law forced not to discriminate. Its their choice.
                            Theoretical question here.

                            Let's picture a staunch anti-Papal-authority, dispensationalist, believes-Muhammad-to-be-a-false-prophet, Evangelical Christian baker. He makes what he understands to be Christian cakes. If, for whatever reason, a Catholic family requests of him a cake with a picture of the Pope and some words about him, or a Preterist Christian requests a cake celebrating Preterism, or a Muslim asks for a cake celebrating God's message through Muhammad, and this baker sees those cakes as unChristian, should he make them anyway? To his eyes, they may well be asking him (perhaps forcing him?) to change his value proposition, the very 'why' of his product. In other words, is it discrimination if agreeing to the customer's desires involves changing the value proposition --which obviously is defined by the dudes offering their goods or services--?

                            In their eyes, it may look like forcing Apple to sell iPhones with keyboards instead of the touchscreen, or with Android instead of iOS as their OS, or forcing Victoria's Secret to sell male underwear too -- changes to what makes the product or service, well, the product or service. Any seller may one day heed those unsatisfied voices and change their product's characteristics accordingly, if they want to (and perhaps if they need to, in order to stay in business), but is that not the seller's choice? IIRC, in the words of Porter, that is strategy right there -- to choose what NOT to do.

                            Depending on your answer, one could start a movement to get Victoria's Secret to make us some male underwear models wearing their unique signature. I don't think I would buy it myself, but who knows? It may catch on in a couple of years.


                            (For the record, I'm not implying the above baker's views to be my own. I myself lean more preterist than else )
                            Last edited by Bisto; 02-12-2017, 09:43 PM.
                            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
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