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Thread: Non-theistic Moral Realism

  1. #351
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Compatibilism argues that ‘free will’ and ‘determinism’ are compatible, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lesser degree, without being logically inconsistent.
    Like I said it only works if you redefine free will, and by the definition of Compatibilism (free to act according to our nature) my dog would have free will. Tass, do you believe my Aussie has free will, in any real sense?
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  2. #352
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    And so was Moses' slaughter, rape and pillaging of neighbouring tribes. But we're are rising above primitive tribalism and national ideologies. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights reflects the instinctive values and ideals of humanity beyond mere tribalism and has gained the force of International Law. It overrides the tribal/ideological/sectarian interests of individual nations or religions.
    Again nonsense, no matter what Moses did or what the Muslims do now or the Communist or in the future it is all instinctive in your world. And Islam does not give a hoot about your International Law, so that law overrides nothing. And Islam will surpass Christianity in a few years and may demographically dominate Europe in a few generations. Just remember if the world slips under Islamic rule it was all instinctive.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  3. #353
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Shuny, I don't hold determinism, I don't believe we are slaves to instincts as Tass does.
    Determinism doe not translate to slavery to instincts. I do prefer compatibilism.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #354
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Determinism doe not translate to slavery to instincts. I do prefer compatibilism.
    Yes determinism does make you a slave to instincts and antecedent conditions and compatibilism does not deny determinism. You just have redefined free will.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  5. #355
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes determinism does make you a slave to instincts and antecedent conditions and compatibilism does not deny determinism. You just have redefined free will.
    Disagree as previously explained.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #356
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Disagree as previously explained.
    You can disagree all you want, you are still wrong - how can you be free but still determined?
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  7. #357
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Like I said it only works if you redefine free will, and by the definition of Compatibilism (free to act according to our nature) my dog would have free will. Tass, do you believe my Aussie has free will, in any real sense?
    It seems that even you don't believe that your dog has free will, (I wonder why,) and yet your dog has no idea that his choices are determined, that they are not really choices at all, in our normal sense of the words meaning. So what makes you think you're any different, why should it be that you have free will, but your dog, "no thats just silly" doesn't. The only difference between you and your dog is that you can wonder about that, wonder about whether you are a robot or not, and your dog can not, nor does he/she care.

  8. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  9. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    The only difference between you and your dog is that you can wonder about that, wonder about whether you are a robot or not, and your dog can not, nor does he/she care.
    And since I can wonder about that and do I care, perhaps I can then act - even against my desires and instincts.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  10. #359
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And since I can wonder about that and do I care, perhaps I can then act - even against my desires and instincts.
    Well you could, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that your ability to wonder, to care, or to act, makes that wondering, that caring, or those actions any less determined. Perhaps you are right, perhaps we have free will, I would like to think so, but the stronger argument, really the only argument, suggests that you are wrong.

  11. #360
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You can disagree all you want, you are still wrong - how can you be free but still determined?
    The range of choices are there, but limited by perdetermined factors, which is the reality of human existence. Desires and instincts, are not the only things that limit our decision making process, but they indeed limit the rang of our potential range of decisions.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-21-2017 at 04:04 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.

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