Non-theistic Moral Realism

[Tassman]

Shuny Libertarian free will is grounded in the principle of contrary choice. Compatibilism does not accept that principle, neither does determinism - period. If you think otherwise please link a reference.

What YOU need to explain is how libertarian free-will can be logically coherent in a determined universe, wherein decisions and actions are a consequence of antecedent states of affairs. I.e. how your LFW decisions can arise in a vacuum. Still waiting.

[Tassman]

Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
True, but the morals and ethics that maintain the family and community persist.

OK

We instinctively exercise the morals and ethics that maintain the family and community...as you agree. And, as the world shrinks and becomes more of a global village, we naturally tend to extend our community boundaries to encompass all peoples...as reflected in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There are many Third Work countries or totalitarian regimes yet to be brought into the fold, but this is nevertheless the trend.

[seer]

We instinctively exercise the morals and ethics that maintain the family and community...as you agree. And, as the world shrinks and becomes more of a global village, we naturally tend to extend our community boundaries to encompass all peoples...as reflected in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There are many Third Work countries or totalitarian regimes yet to be brought into the fold, but this is nevertheless the trend.

That is just silly Tass, Islam is on the rise, country after country is falling. Demographically even western Europe is now in danger. Your naive view of the world does not reflect the facts. But hey, it is all determined by the forces of nature. No worries.

[seer]

What YOU need to explain is how libertarian free-will can be logically coherent in a determined universe, wherein decisions and actions are a consequence of antecedent states of affairs. I.e. how your LFW decisions can arise in a vacuum. Still waiting.

No, for this discussion I only need to show that my view of LFW is not the same as Compatibilism, which I did.

[Tassman]

No, for this discussion I only need to show that my view of LFW is not the same as Compatibilism, which I did.

The moment you introduce "restrictions" to LFW you're referring to Compatibilism NOT LFW. Nor have you explained how LFW can be logically coherent in a universe in which every sequence of events is the consequence of an antecedent states of affairs.

[Tassman]

That is just silly Tass, Islam is on the rise, country after country is falling. Demographically even western Europe is now in danger. Your naive view of the world does not reflect the facts. But hey, it is all determined by the forces of nature. No worries.

Nevertheless we have a set of ideals to strive towards as enunciated by the Declaration of Human Rights and the International Criminal Court, which is an international tribunal that sits in The Hague. This is a notable development from the era of unchecked tribal warfare as per say, Moses and his genocides.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny Libertarian free will is grounded in the principle of contrary choice. Compatibilism does not accept that principle, neither does determinism - period. If you think otherwise please link a reference.

Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

© Copyright Original Source

[seer]

Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

© Copyright Original Source

No Shuny, as my link demonstrated Libertarian free will classically meant the ability to do otherwise. If you want to redefine freedom then yes, but your definition is just warmed over determinism - no one is arguing that men can not act on their desires and nature, but those desires and that nature are still determined by antecedent conditions.

[seer]

Nevertheless we have a set of ideals to strive towards as enunciated by the Declaration of Human Rights and the International Criminal Court, which is an international tribunal that sits in The Hague. This is a notable development from the era of unchecked tribal warfare as per say, Moses and his genocides.

Goals? Where do these goals come from? And why are they objectively more correct or valid than those of the Muslim or Communist?

[shunyadragon]

No Shuny, as my link demonstrated Libertarian free will classically meant the ability to do otherwise. If you want to redefine freedom then yes, but your definition is just warmed over determinism - no one is arguing that men can not act on their desires and nature, but those desires and that nature are still determined by antecedent conditions.

You asked for a link that describes what Compatibilism is. The contrary view of the incompatibilists is simply that an opposing view and does no determine nor prove compatibiism does not allow free will.

You can make assertions all day 365 days a year, but it does not prove your case in philosophy,

[Tassman]

Goals? Where do these goals come from?

Why they come from God of course. Just kidding!

As a social species our ideals are grounded in our evolved genetic predisposition to live in cohesive communities. It’s an instinctive survival mechanism.

And why are they objectively more correct or valid than those of the Muslim or Communist?

...or Christian!

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights reflects the instinctive values and ideals of humanity and has gained the force of International Law. It overrides the tribal/ideological/sectarian interests of individual nations or religions.

[Tassman]

No Shuny, as my link demonstrated Libertarian free will classically meant the ability to do otherwise. If you want to redefine freedom then yes, but your definition is just warmed over determinism - no one is arguing that men can not act on their desires and nature, but those desires and that nature are still determined by antecedent conditions.

No, that’s Compatibilism.

Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lessor degree, without being logically inconsistent.

Conversely, LFW is logically incoherent because it does not allow for the effect of antecedent conditions that impact upon every decision and event; i.e. one's decisions arise from a vacuum, which of course is nonsensical.

[seer]

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights reflects the instinctive values and ideals of humanity and has gained the force of International Law. It overrides the tribal/ideological/sectarian interests of individual nations or religions.

That is nonsense, the values of the Communist or Muslim are just as instinctive.

[seer]

No, that’s Compatibilism.

Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to have both, to a greater or lessor degree, without being logically inconsistent.

That only works if you redefine free will to mean that we can freely act according to our nature without external influence (the ability to do otherwise is not included). But heck my dog can do that, so I guess by your lights my Aussie has free will.

[shunyadragon]

That is nonsense, the values of the Communist or Muslim are just as instinctive.

. . . so are Jewish and Christian.