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Thread: Non-theistic Moral Realism

  1. #421
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is impossible to take Adrift and you seriously, because your are unreasonably combative, aggressive, biased by an agenda that you believe that your belief is absolutely truth, and other beliefs are false. This is confirmed by previous citations. Dialogue is useless given your arrogant aggressive attitude toward to everyone who believes differently than you.

    All this has been documented by previous citations that have confirmed this.
    See you don't answer the questions and revert to personal attacks. The fact is Shuny your religion teaches that Adam was the father of humanity, no matter what cycles that went before all humans today are descended from Adam. And that Adam was not the biological offspring of preexisting humans (he did not have a biological father or mother). And we inherent from Adam a nature that is in bondage which as Abu Abdu'l-Baha says is identical with sin.
    The settled happiness and security which we all desire, God withholds from us by the very nature of the world: but joy, pleasure, and merriment, He has scattered around. We are never safe, but we have plenty of fun, and some ecstasy. It is not hard to see why. The security we crave would teach us to rest our hearts in this world and pose an obstacle to our return to God” C.S. Lewis

  2. #422
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    "Self awareness" developed among many creatures as a by-product of intelligence. Its existence can be verified.
    You haven't answered the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman
    Conversely there's no verifiable evidence of free-will similarly evolving.
    What would be such evidence? Please give some (hypothetical) examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman
    So, since you claim that libertarian free-will exists, you need to say when this occurred. Was it when all life consisted of microbial organisms? Did the dinosaurs have free-will? Or was it when life evolved via incremental stages into warm-blooded animals like us? When, and how do you know?
    Perhaps seer can answer that after you've answered his question.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  3. #423
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    This is very ironic, coming from you.
    I forgot your at the top of the list.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #424
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    You haven't answered the question.
    I have. “Self awareness” exists, it is measurable and there is no good reason to think that it didn’t emerge other than incrementally via natural selection, as has every other quality of every other creature.

    What would be such evidence? Please give some (hypothetical) examples.
    No. YOU provide evidence of how determinism can be overridden by libertarian free-will, given that every event, decision and action is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that humans have no influence on the future and its events (this is Fatalism), but that the level to which humans have influence over their future is itself largely dependent on present and past.

    Perhaps seer can answer that after you've answered his question.
    Waiting!
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #425
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I have. “Self awareness” exists, it is measurable and there is no good reason to think that it didn’t emerge other than incrementally via natural selection, as has every other quality of every other creature.

    You haven't answered the question at all. Seer asked: " Where and how in the evolutionary tree did self-awareness develop?" The above is not an answer to that question, it gives no specifics as to 'where' and 'how'; and does no more than assume that since self awareness exists, it must be a result of evolutionary processes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman
    No. YOU provide evidence of how determinism can be overridden by libertarian free-will, given that every event, decision and action is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that humans have no influence on the future and its events (this is Fatalism), but that the level to which humans have influence over their future is itself largely dependent on present and past.

    You've moved the goal posts. That's dishonest dialogue.

    You said that "Conversely there's no verifiable evidence of free-will similarly evolving." Now asking for evidence of how "...determinism can be overridden by libertarian free-will" is a different question.


    You can't provide such evidence for self-awareness; and you can't even give a hypothetical example of what such evidence for the evolution of free will could be. So you can neither yourself meet the standard of evidence you demand of others, nor even specify what could even possibly be evidence that would meet your demand. So you're trying to 'win' by demanding what you neither can do, nor can show is even possible to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman
    Waiting!
    Yawn.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  6. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  7. #426
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I forgot your at the top of the list.
    Learn correct grammar, and try not to do what you criticise in others. Then maybe your retorts would have some weight.

    Please explain with citations how seer's quote does not show what a plain reading of it says. Are there some acknowledged Ba'hai scholars that follow your interpretations? Cite them in support.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  8. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  9. #427
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    You haven't answered the question at all. Seer asked: " Where and how in the evolutionary tree did self-awareness develop?" The above is not an answer to that question, it gives no specifics as to 'where' and 'how'; and does no more than assume that since self awareness exists, it must be a result of evolutionary processes.
    Self-awareness exists; it is measurable and can be tested via the mirror test and other experiments. Conversely, libertarian free-will is logically incoherent. It cannot exist in a universe wherein every event, decision and action is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. See the difference?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  10. #428
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Self-awareness exists; it is measurable and can be tested via the mirror test and other experiments. Conversely, libertarian free-will is logically incoherent. It cannot exist in a universe wherein every event, decision and action is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. See the difference?
    Tass that was not the point at all - you said: If we have free will, where and how in the evolutionary tree did it develop? But that is completely irrelevant to whether we have free will or not. It is no more relevant to whether we are self-aware or not. As far as science goes who knows what it will say in the future - perhaps it will come to the conclusion that self-awareness is to an illusion - that there really is no individual self to be aware of.
    The settled happiness and security which we all desire, God withholds from us by the very nature of the world: but joy, pleasure, and merriment, He has scattered around. We are never safe, but we have plenty of fun, and some ecstasy. It is not hard to see why. The security we crave would teach us to rest our hearts in this world and pose an obstacle to our return to God” C.S. Lewis

  11. #429
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass that was not the point at all - you said: If we have free will, where and how in the evolutionary tree did it develop? But that is completely irrelevant to whether we have free will or not.
    We live in a universe wherein every event, decision and action is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Hence, you need to say at what point this causal chain was broken to allow for libertarian free will to exist. And you cannot.

    It is no more relevant to whether we are self-aware or not. As far as science goes who knows what it will say in the future - perhaps it will come to the conclusion that self-awareness is to an illusion - that there really is no individual self to be aware of.
    False equivalence! Self-awareness exists; it is measurable and it can be tested. Conversely, libertarian free-will is logically incoherent and cannot exist except as an illusion.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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