Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Non-theistic Moral Realism
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOkay, but you do see i hope that this concept of determinism that you are espousing, i.e. compatibilism, assumes the existence of a mind, or soul, that is separated from, or independent of, the physical body, the latter being determined, but the former being free. For one thing, as I see it, that is a contradiction in that the mind/soul, even if free, could not control the physical body, not only because of the material/immaterial argument, but also because the physical body itself would be determined and so couldn't also be controlled. If determinism is true therefore, then it must be true of both body and mind even in the case of dualism. So I'm not seeing where compatabilism could work for you as a theory that fits together with determinism.
My faith, Baha'i supports the belief that humans are capable of free will concerning human decisions concerning moral and ethical issues dependent on issues whether natural law apply on the influences the decision making process. The problem is natural law influences such factors as genetics, which can limit free will decisions like those concerning sexual gender, and homosexual versus heterosexual orientation. From the Baha'i perspective taking into consideration the influence of natural law compatibilism is the best descriptive nature of free will considering the real observation objective evidence concerning free will of humans.Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-22-2017, 09:27 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo says the sock puppet who has no control over what he thinks or says...
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostStop misrepresenting 'determinism' and answer the question: "How can YOU exercise libertarian free-will in a vacuum without being influenced by the antecedent events of your entire life that comprise your subconscious?"Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSock puppet, how am I misrepresenting anything when you have agreed that every you think do or say is determined by antecedent conditions?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWe are not passive victims of fate, as you typically continue to dishonestly assert, despite having had determinism explained to you ad nauseam. Every decision is influenced by the antecedent conditions which comprise our subconscious mind. So please explain how you can exercise free-will in a vacuum? This is logically incoherent. You clearly refuse to address this problem because you don't have an answer other than "god made a miracle" and gave you libertarian free-will.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTass, "Influence" does not prohibit free will. Influence isn't exactly deterministic and I think that unless ones choices are actually determined by, not just influenced by, the antecedent conditions which comprise the subconscious mind, then it doesn't really make sense to call it determinism.
Actually in one way or another even various theological Christian views are deterministic. God in most views determines future events and decisions in the future regardless of what people believe concerning the 'free will' nature of their decisions.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTass, "Influence" does not prohibit free will. Influence isn't exactly deterministic and I think that unless ones choices are actually determined by, not just influenced by, the antecedent conditions which comprise the subconscious mind, then it doesn't really make sense to call it determinism.
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Okay, I see what you're saying, I just think "influence" is a confusing term to use, as if there is something, or someone else that is being influenced, and if only that someone else were aware of the influence then they could choose to ignore it. I know you don't mean that, so when you say nevertheless, we make our choices, what you really mean to say is that, though it is we that do the choosing, every choice we make is pre-destined from day one. In other words the "we" that you speak of is naught but a robot that becomes conscious of its pre-determined choices, after making them.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostOkay, I see what you're saying, I just think "influence" is a confusing term to use, as if there is something, or someone else that is being influenced, and if only that someone else were aware of the influence then they could choose to ignore it. I know you don't mean that, so when you say nevertheless, we make our choices, what you really mean to say is that, though it is we that do the choosing, every choice we make is pre-destined from day one. In other words the "we" that you speak of is naught but a robot that becomes conscious of its pre-determined choices, after making them.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIf we have free will, where and how in the evolutionary tree did it develop?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow is that even relevant? Where and how in the evolutionary tree did self-awareness develop?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostLike all evolutionary traits in species it was a gradual process. Other than humans primates and higher mammals such as whales, and elephants show lesser degrees of Self-awareness. Many primates recognize themselves in the mirror, and mourn the loose of their family members. Many mammals also dream.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo what? That does not tell us how or why self awareness came about - it certainly is not necessary for survival.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOf course, it does not tell us why? that is a philosophical/theological question, but it does give a natural evolutionary how self-awareness came about. Yes, it is necessary for survival.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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