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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Non-theistic Moral Realism

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    First, no it it doesn't tell us how the evolutionary process caused self-awareness, you are just assuming that it did. Second, it is not necessary for survival, the vast majority of creatures, even most primates, survive just find without it.
    No, they do not survive without it. Your question is answered. Your hostile to science and the science of evolution, therefore your answer is understandable. It is a matter of science that physical, and mental nature of humans and other animals evolved to survive, and yes it is necessary.

    Of course, it does not tell us why? that is a philosophical/theological question, but it does give a natural evolutionary how self-awareness came about. Yes, it is necessary for survival.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-25-2017, 03:48 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      No, they do not survive without it. Your question is answered. Your hostile to science and the science of evolution, therefore your answer is understandable. It is a matter of science that physical, and mental nature of humans and other animals evolved to survive, and yes it is necessary.
      What are you talking about? The vast majority of species survive fine without self-awareness. For instance you brought up the mirror test, only a hand full of creatures pass that, showing a degree self-awareness. Survival does not depend on self-awareness. So once again Shuny you are just talking out your ass...

      And as far as science, look to your own beliefs that teach that Adam did not have a father or mother. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post427854
      Last edited by seer; 03-25-2017, 04:33 PM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        <zip>
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          How is that even relevant? Where and how in the evolutionary tree did self-awareness develop?
          "Self awareness" developed among many creatures as a by-product of intelligence. Its existence can be verified. Conversely there's no verifiable evidence of free-will similarly evolving. So, since you claim that libertarian free-will exists, you need to say when this occurred. Was it when all life consisted of microbial organisms? Did the dinosaurs have free-will? Or was it when life evolved via incremental stages into warm-blooded animals like us? When, and how do you know?
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            "Self awareness" developed among many creatures as a by-product of intelligence. Its existence can be verified. Conversely there's no verifiable evidence of free-will similarly evolving. So, since you claim that libertarian free-will exists, you need to say when this occurred. Was it when all life consisted of microbial organisms? Did the dinosaurs have free-will? Or was it when life evolved via incremental stages into warm-blooded animals like us? When, and how do you know?
            No Tass, you can to tell us how or why self awareness came about, that ignorance does not speak against its reality, any more than ignorance of its development would speak against free will.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              No Tass, you can to tell us how or why self awareness came about, that ignorance does not speak against its reality, any more than ignorance of its development would speak against free will.
              You reject science and the science of evolution with a 'hand wave,' therefore your conclusions are based on a voluntary ignorance and the rejection of science.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                You reject science and the science of evolution with a 'hand wave,' therefore your conclusions are based on a voluntary ignorance and the rejection of science.
                Well, his conclusions are either determined, or voluntary, but they can't be both. Pick one.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Well, his conclusions are either determined, or voluntary, but they can't be both. Pick one.
                  Well in his view he has voluntarily chosen a world view that rejects modern science. His agenda is than determined by his rejection of science. The only 'determinism' he would be under is that God already knows and 'determined' all the decisions he will make.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No Tass, you can to tell us how or why self awareness came about, that ignorance does not speak against its reality, any more than ignorance of its development would speak against free will.
                    The difference is that we have verifiable evidence of the existence of self-awareness and we know that it evolved via natural selection, just as intelligence did. We have no such evidence concerning your logically incoherent assertion of the existence of libertarian free-will.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      You reject science and the science of evolution with a 'hand wave,' therefore your conclusions are based on a voluntary ignorance and the rejection of science.
                      But you reject the science of evolution too!

                      That Adam was created without a father and mother: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post427854

                      And that Adam is the father of all mankind: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post427504
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        <snip>
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          The difference is that we have verifiable evidence of the existence of self-awareness and we know that it evolved via natural selection, just as intelligence did. We have no such evidence concerning your logically incoherent assertion of the existence of libertarian free-will.
                          No Tass, you are ignoring your double standard. You suggested that freedom of the will was invalid because we do not know how or where it came about. But we don't know how or where self-awareness came about. On that specific point you have a double standard. Then you say that free will is not valid because we don't know how it works or could work - but as Sam Harris made clear, we really don't know how or why consciousness works. I understand both consciousness and free will from first person experience, you even have said that we have the illusion of free will. But why should I believe that free will is any more an illusion than my self-awareness?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            You really are a hypocrite Shuny, and just so you know, going forward, every time you accuse me of denying science I'm going to link those posts.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              You really are a hypocrite Shuny, and just so you know, going forward, every time you accuse me of denying science I'm going to link those posts.
                              Which is a dishonest biased selective citing Baha'i scripture, which you do not remotely believe. I could care less what you do, because your unethical dishonest manner has no credibility.

                              Yes you do deny science and dishonestly misrepresent science as with everybody elses beliefs you disagree with.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-27-2017, 06:04 PM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Which is a dishonest biased selective citing Baha'i scripture, which you do not remotely believe. I could care less what you do, because your unethical dishonest manner has no credibility.

                                Yes you do deny science and dishonestly misrepresent science as with everybody elses beliefs you disagree with.
                                That is a lie Shuny, I did not misquote your religion. I have backed you into a corner - who do you believe - science or the teachings of your religion?

                                "If being without a father is a virtue, Adam is greater and more excellent than all the Prophets and Messengers, for He had neither father nor mother." (Some Answered Questions, p. 89)

                                "O handmaid of God! It is with the Lord Christ even as with Adam. Did the first human being who came into existence on this earth have a father or mother? It is certain that he had neither. But Christ lacked only a father." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha 139:6)

                                For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

                                Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-30.html

                                http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr2
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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