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Thread: Non-theistic Moral Realism

  1. #21
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes I think it comes back to who subjectively decides what is normative and intrinsically good.
    Through the history of humanity morality and ethics has been universal and consistent, and normative and intrinsically good, and no one person decides this. Societies and cultures collectively have evolved and determined morals and ethics to maintain social order and stability for the survival of the species.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Cooperation and a stable family, and community have evolved as necessary for the survival of the species.
    But why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Societies and cultures collectively have evolved and determined morals and ethics to maintain social order and stability for the survival of the species.
    You mean like the countries that Adrift listed where wife rape is legal? That should promote the survival of the species.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?
    It depends on how you define good. It need not be an objective 'moral good' in Theist terms to be the reason for morality and ethics in the survival of the species. In terms of the human species perspective it is indeed a good thing to survive.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You mean like the countries that Adrift listed where wife rape is legal? That should promote the survival of the species.
    Careful, the Bible does not clearly define rape as a sin.

    One correction on the list is in China rape is illegal including marital rape, and recently homosexual rape of males has been added to the list. There are problems with rape in some European countries. I will go into this more in the future.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It depends on how you define good. It need not be an objective 'moral good' in Theist terms to be the reason for morality and ethics in the survival of the species. In terms of the human species perspective it is indeed a good thing to survive.
    So it is not an objective moral good for our species to survive?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Careful, the Bible does not clearly define rape as a sin.

    One correction on the list is in China rape is illegal including marital rape, and recently homosexual rape of males has been added to the list. There are problems with rape in some European countries. I will go into this more in the future.
    Wife rape is legal in many countries, and since it certainly can promote survival of the species it must be an objective moral good by your definition.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Wife rape is legal in many countries, and since it certainly can promote survival of the species it must be an objective moral good by your definition.
    He's mistaken about China too, unless something drastic has changed since last March. Marital rape is still legal there.

    Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/china-outlaws-domestic-abuse-160301053424903.html



    China makes domestic abuse a crime

    1 MARCH 2016

    A new law that makes domestic abuse a crime has come into effect in China.

    It is hoped the legislation will encourage more victims to take their abusers to court in a country where violence at home is still widely regarded as a private matter.

    The All-China Women's Federation estimates that nearly 25 percent of married women in China have experienced domestic violence. But the real figure is probably much higher, because reporting abuse is still rare - especially in the countryside.

    "From today victims of domestic abuse will be able to go to court to seek a restraining order that could force the abuser to move out of the home. A judge will have 72 hours to make a ruling," Al Jazeera's China correspondent Adrian Brown reported.

    "But critics say the legislation still doesn't go far enough, since it fails to outlaw marital rape and doesn't place enough emphasis on health and social services."

    © Copyright Original Source


  9. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    He's mistaken about China too, unless something drastic has changed since last March. Marital rape is still legal there.

    Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/china-outlaws-domestic-abuse-160301053424903.html



    China makes domestic abuse a crime

    1 MARCH 2016

    A new law that makes domestic abuse a crime has come into effect in China.

    It is hoped the legislation will encourage more victims to take their abusers to court in a country where violence at home is still widely regarded as a private matter.

    The All-China Women's Federation estimates that nearly 25 percent of married women in China have experienced domestic violence. But the real figure is probably much higher, because reporting abuse is still rare - especially in the countryside.

    "From today victims of domestic abuse will be able to go to court to seek a restraining order that could force the abuser to move out of the home. A judge will have 72 hours to make a ruling," Al Jazeera's China correspondent Adrian Brown reported.

    "But critics say the legislation still doesn't go far enough, since it fails to outlaw marital rape and doesn't place enough emphasis on health and social services."

    © Copyright Original Source

    You are mistaken.First the question was rape, and not domestic abuse, which is a problem world wide. Rape is and has been illegal in China including marital rape. Your moving the goal post and considering domestic abuse. If you consider the present laws your double wrong, because domestic abuse is now illegal in China. Marital rape comes under a separate law and is illegal, but like world wide including USA enforcement is quesionable.

    How laws are enforced is always a problem worldwide. Do you understand the problem of the enforcement of rape laws in this country concerning US campuses and the failure of the enforcement US laws.

    Example of a USA problem:

    Source: http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/05/10/texas-advocates-fight-prison-rape/



    Texas Says It Will Ignore Rules Designed to Prevent Rape of Minors in Prisons

    Linda Bruntmyer went to her grave thinking she’d won reform in honor of her son, who was repeatedly assaulted in a Texas prison.

    But Rick Perry has decided he won’t follow those rules.

    On June 14, 2005, Texas mother Linda Bruntmyer went before the Congressional Prison Rape Elimination Commission in Washington, D.C., and told the story of her son, Rodney Hulin, and his untimely death. Rodney was only 16, a waif of a boy at 5'2" and 125 pounds, when he was convicted of setting a trash can on fire in Brazoria County, Texas, that caused $500 worth of damage. The judge decided to make an example of him, and he was sentenced to eight years in an adult prison. His small stature made him an easy target for the hardened convicts, and almost immediately after entering the system, Rodney was raped by another prisoner.

    After the assault, while her son healed in the prison hospital, Bruntmyer was in constant contact with the prison warden, begging him to protect her son, to segregate him from the general population. Her cries went unheeded.

    “The warden said Rodney needed to grow up,” Bruntmyer testified. “He said, ‘This happens every day; learn to deal with it. It’s no big deal.’ ”

    Rodney was put back in with grown men and was subsequently beaten and raped, again and again. After less than a year of this torture, he committed suicide, hanging himself in his cell.

    Bruntmyer’s testimony was persuasive, as were her years of lobbying for reform. In 2012, the U.S. Department of Justice finally issued a series of steadfast guidelines for preventing sexual abuse in correctional facilities, under the provisions of the 2003 Prison Rape Elimination Act. Among other protections, the provisions required that prisons house teenage boys separately from older convicts.

    Base on the blanket biased generalization of your list, I seriously question its validity.

    © Copyright Original Source



    More to follow concerning this question. There remains a serious problem that the Bible does not define rape as a sin. The Baha'i Faith to specifically consider all rape a sin in all cases without exception..
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-13-2017 at 10:00 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #30
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattdamore View Post
    This response is keeping in mind your qualification "from a human perspective". Thus, your position seems to be that from a human perspective, you do not believe that theistic moral realism can be "distinguished" from non-theistic moral realism. Because it seems to me that we can, perhaps you could unpack that for me. For right now, I'll just say that it seems that we can because all I need to do to distinguish the two is to include or exclude the moniker "theistic". To include it would be to say that God explains and is the ground for objective morality; and to exclude it would be to provide an account of objective morality that does not include God as part of its ontological structure - that it would be sufficient to ground it in something other than God in order to adequately substantiate its objective status.
    Back to the subject of the thread in respect to mattdamore.

    There is a difference between the human perception of a difference between a (NMN) morality and a Divine objective morality than what would be a logical defense of an 'objective morality' to argue for the existence of God. I believe there is a foundation of Divine Law and the Created nature of humanity in the image of the attributes of God that is Divine ultimate nature of humanity, but arguing that logically on the necessity of a Divine objective Source based on the objective evidence this fails.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-13-2017 at 10:33 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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