Announcement

Collapse

Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Non-theistic Moral Realism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    But why is the survival of the species an objective moral good?
    @ Shuny

    If we take the paradigm of "survival" as the purpose and meaning of being "human" then such a narrative can promote a zero-sum world-view---my survival is more important than your survival....Even if such an outlook/paradigm managed to promote altruisim so that survival of the human species as a whole becomes "reasonably" important---it may still not be enough---as it would fail to consider the other species and the environment (---all of God's creations).

    Consider also the concept of duty, responsibility, obligation....if the purpose of these values (duty) is based on self-interest alone (survival), the weight of this value is shallow---but it can have more weight if it is based on some concept such as the greater good for the greater number (Utilitarianism). However, when ethical values become a numbers game---it loses its value as ethics.

    What is the purpose/goal of an ethical system? to promote survival?, or the greatest good for the greatest number?, or to do God's will?, or to define good/bad? or to build communities? The set-up of an ethical system will depend on what purpose it is being used for. This purpose depends on what is the narrative for the existence of human-being/humanity....do we exist solely for individual survival, community survival, and/or species survival?...or do our narratives give us more meaning and purpose for our existence?

    Our lived experience is complex and encompasses many areas from our interactions with our governments and civic institutions to commercial activities and economics, to social norms, customs, traditions, to our multiple identities and various other institutions/systems....a narrative/paradigm that can promote altruism in all areas of human activity and thought is beneficial....

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      More to follow concerning this question. There remains a serious problem that the Bible does not define rape as a sin. The Baha'i Faith to specifically consider all rape a sin in all cases without exception..
      Why are you bringing the bible in Shuny? And the love of neighbor and the golden rule as Christ taught would cover such harm as rape.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        You are mistaken.First the question was rape, and not domestic abuse, which is a problem world wide. Rape is and has been illegal in China including marital rape. Your moving the goal post and considering domestic abuse. If you consider the present laws your double wrong, because domestic abuse is now illegal in China. Marital rape comes under a separate law and is illegal, but like world wide including USA enforcement is quesionable.

        1.) I did not move the goal post. I did not cite the article from Aljazeera to say anything about domestic abuse in China outside of marital rape.

        2.) If you had actually taken three seconds to read the article instead of blowing your top as soon as you skimmed it, you would have noticed that the article agrees with you that "China makes domestic abuse a crime" which is a good thing. Yay China for stepping up!

        3.) The reason I cited the article is because it states in the last sentence "But critics say the legislation still doesn't go far enough, since it fails to outlaw marital rape and doesn't place enough emphasis on health and social services." I even underlined this for you so that you would not miss it. But you did.

        4.) You started your fourth sentence with the possessive "your" when what you really wanted to use was the contraction "you're". Most people make this mistake occasionally, but you do this in almost every single one of your posts. It's a really easy mistake to fix though. All you have to do is sound out what what you want to say. If you want to say "you are", then you type "you're". If that doesn't sound right, then use "your". It's simple.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Back to the subject of the thread in respect to mattdamore.

          There is a difference between the human perception of a difference between a (NMN) morality and a Divine objective morality than what would be a logical defense of an 'objective morality' to argue for the existence of God. I believe there is a foundation of Divine Law and the Created nature of humanity in the image of the attributes of God that is Divine ultimate nature of humanity, but arguing that logically on the necessity of a Divine objective Source based on the objective evidence this fails.
          Posted this late,so a little wording problem.

          IF there is a difference between the human perception of a difference between a (NMN) morality and a Divine objective morality than there would be a logical defense of an 'objective morality of an outside authority' to argue for the existence of God. Unfortunately there is not, without objective evidence of definable difference, nor for evidence of an 'objective outside authority nor source.

          I believe there is a foundation of Divine Law and the Created nature of humanity in the image of the attributes of God that is Divine ultimate nature of humanity, but arguing that logically on the necessity of a Divine objective Source based on the objective evidence this fails. Morality and ethics are by definition human social and cultural conventions that evolved over time. They are neither objective nor subjective. They have objective and subjective attributes, and they are consistently normative to human nature.

          From the NMN perspective morality and ethics are objectively rooted in the needs of the human species to survive as complex social animal.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Why are you bringing the bible in Shuny?
            His standard modus operandi. He doesn't really have anything to contribute ever. He's just begging for a bit of attention, and has to get his daily anti-Christian polemic in, no matter how unrelated it is to the flow of conversation. Like some sort of strange OCD tick or something.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              From the NMN perspective morality and ethics are objectively rooted in the needs of the human species to survive as complex social animal.
              So how do you tell what is moral or not? For instance, again, if wife rape helps the species survive then that is good - correct.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                His standard modus operandi. He doesn't really have anything to contribute ever. He's just begging for a bit of attention, and has to get his daily anti-Christian polemic in, no matter how unrelated it is to the flow of conversation. Like some sort of strange OCD tick or something.
                I think it is evident that he has a deep hatred for the Gospel.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Why are you bringing the bible in Shuny? And the love of neighbor and the golden rule as Christ taught would cover such harm as rape.
                  It unfortunately the Bible does not. The Baha'i Faith condemns rape in all forms for the New Age. The Bible fails to do this so does the Koran.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    It unfortunately the Bible does not. The Baha'i Faith condemns rape in all forms for the New Age. The Bible fails to do this so does the Koran.
                    You really are stupid. If you love your wife as yourself, and practice the golden rule are you going to rape her? And remember your faith teaches that God will torment the Jews with fire for rejecting Jesus.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      So how do you tell what is moral or not? For instance, again, if wife rape helps the species survive then that is good - correct.
                      No. We do not tell what is good nor evil in NMN. The over all moral and ethical standards of societies and cultures promote cooperation and the stability of the family, community and society. Behavior that does not promote these ends would not dominate, such as rape or wife rape. Many forms of detramental or destructive behavior are part of human nature, but the do not dominate as normative to positive morals and ethics that insure the survival of the species.

                      Problem; if rape or wife rape, is bad or evil, not good, why is it not specifically forbidden in the Bible, and persisted in Hebrew and Christian societies up until the past ~200 year when secular laws began to protect women?

                      It is interesting that it was East European and Communist countries were the first to pass wife rape laws.

                      Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape


                      Countries which were early to criminalize marital rape include the Soviet Union (1922/1960),[40] Poland (1932), Czechoslovakia (1950), some other members of the Communist Bloc . . .

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      It is interesting that the USA and other Christian western countries were quite late in passing these laws (1970-1993). Early court decisions in the USA cited the Bible and rejected wife rape as illegal. Was it Morally good before this, and bad now?

                      It remains that the Baha'i Laws were the first in history to prohibit all forms of rape.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-15-2017, 07:16 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Wife rape is legal in many countries, and since it certainly can promote survival of the species it must be an objective moral good by your definition.
                        No it is not 'good' by my definition. By my definition, Baha'i Laws are the standard today in terms of what is 'good, and ALL forms of rape are prohibited in the Baha'i Laws.

                        Since rape and wife rape is not specifically prohibited in the Bible and not illegal in most Christian countries of the world until recent history was it good then and evil now?
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          No. We do not tell what is good nor evil in NMN. The over all moral and ethical standards of societies and cultures promote cooperation and the stability of the family, community and society. Behavior that does not promote these ends would not dominate, such as rape or wife rape. Many forms of detrimental or destructive behavior are part of human nature, but the do not dominate as normative to positive morals and ethics that insure the survival of the species.
                          This is just stupid, for most of history wife rape has been acceptable, and the countries that still allow it have some of the highest birth rates. And that procreation helps the species to survive. So wife rape has not been detrimental to the species survival, and may in fact enhance it and it has been generally normative. So in no rational way would such behavior come up against Non-theistic Moral Realism.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            No it is not 'good' by my definition. By my definition, Baha'i Laws are the standard today in terms of what is 'good, and ALL forms of rape are prohibited in the Baha'i Laws.

                            Since rape and wife rape is not specifically prohibited in the Bible and not illegal in most Christian countries of the world until recent history was it good then and evil now?
                            We are speaking of Non-theistic Moral Realism, please try to stay on topic. And I know of no New Testament principle or teaching that would condone wife rape, just the opposite. If you love your wife as yourself you will not rape her - period end of story.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              @ Shuny

                              If we take the paradigm of "survival" as the purpose and meaning of being "human" then such a narrative can promote a zero-sum world-view---my survival is more important than your survival....Even if such an outlook/paradigm managed to promote altruisim so that survival of the human species as a whole becomes "reasonably" important---it may still not be enough---as it would fail to consider the other species and the environment (---all of God's creations).
                              No, your assumption that the survival paradigm does not promote a zero-sum worldview by the evidence of evolution. The evidence of the survival paradigm throughout the history of life on earth is a net positive-sum worldview, with species best adapted survive and flourish, and those that are not best adapted do not survive. More on your misinformation on the concepts of evolution and NMN I will address in the following. Survival in evolution nor human survival does not boil down to 'my survival versus your survival.'

                              "Reasonably important" is not a criteria of the evolution of life, and yes the relationship between species is a critical factor, and necessary, in the evolution of life.

                              Consider also the concept of duty, responsibility, obligation....if the purpose of these values (duty) is based on self-interest alone (survival), the weight of this value is shallow---but it can have more weight if it is based on some concept such as the greater good for the greater number (Utilitarianism). However, when ethical values become a numbers game---it loses its value as ethics.
                              The false notion of some robotic utilitarianism (ie the design and building a 747) , or any form of selfish self-survival, has nothing to do with evolution and survival value of a species, such as humans, does not reflect reality of the science as we now know.

                              Qualities such as altruism, duty, responsibility, obligation are necessary in a moral and ethical system for the survival og the human species, because of the need of cooperation, and survival of the family, community and society. More primitive systems of morals and ethics with positive cooperative properties are found in the evolution of other intelligent mammals such as other primates, sea mammals and pacaderms (elephants). The key is the evolutionary need for intelligent animals that have a long gestation period, and nurturing care of the young to allow the development of the brain and survival of the next generation.

                              [quote] What is the purpose/goal of an ethical system? to promote survival?, or the grea
                              test good for the greatest number?, or to do God's will?, or to define good/bad? or to build communities? The set-up of an ethical system will depend on what purpose it is being used for. This purpose depends on what is the narrative for the existence of human-being/humanity....do we exist solely for individual survival, community survival, and/or species survival?...or do our narratives give us more meaning and purpose for our existence?
                              First, individual has absolutely never been a factor in the natural evolution of any species. The collective survival of the species has always been the standard. Second, the question of a greater meaning and purpose for our existence, and questions of 'why?' remain the domain of theology and philosophy, and are not necessary in providing a natural explanation for evolution as a whole, nor the evolution of morals and ethics for the survival of the human species requiring cooperative and social behavior for an intelligent species. This also true of other intelligent animals.

                              Our lived experience is complex and encompasses many areas from our interactions with our governments and civic institutions to commercial activities and economics, to social norms, customs, traditions, to our multiple identities and various other institutions/systems....a narrative/paradigm that can promote altruism in all areas of human activity and thought is beneficial....
                              Yes, it is beneficial, and it is a product of the development of a cooperative social intelligent animal such as the human species.

                              It remains that your view toward the science of evolution and modern human behavior science is deficient, and needs up dating.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-15-2017, 08:42 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                We are speaking of Non-theistic Moral Realism, please try to stay on topic. And I know of no New Testament principle or teaching that would condone wife rape, just the opposite. If you love your wife as yourself you will not rape her - period end of story.
                                Not period end of story. Your challenge was to me what was my definition, and I responded. It actually is on topic when Adrift and you bring up the question of 'rape and wife rape.' As it is communist countries that passed the first laws of 'wife rape' based on secular considerations of woman's rights (NMN), deficient in history of western morals and ethics, and not rectified unitil later based on secular standards of human rights, and not Biblical morals and ethical standards.

                                Wife rape is legal in many countries, and since it certainly can promote survival of the species it must be an objective moral good by your definition.
                                Yes, the lack of specific laws and rules in the Bible does, by the facts of history, condone rape and wife rape.

                                It is a fact that the first laws against 'wife rape' are passed in communist countries, and not western Christian countries.

                                Based on your response I consider it unfortunate that you fail to respond in substance. Remember it is adrift and you that brought the moral issue of rape and wife rape in a selective biased manner and neglected the problem of the Bible and Christian history.

                                Still waiting . . .
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-15-2017, 09:00 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by shunyadragon, 03-01-2024, 09:40 AM
                                160 responses
                                509 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Started by seer, 02-15-2024, 11:24 AM
                                88 responses
                                354 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Diogenes, 01-22-2024, 07:37 PM
                                21 responses
                                133 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X