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The Eruv

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.
    The Eruv and in relationship with this passage out of Nehemiah "centers" on the understanding on the boundary lines during Shabbath- it means that the doors shut and that "nothing" can or will disturb "the rest" of the Shabbath, -


    19 It came about that just as it grew dark at the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and that they should not open them until after the Sabbath. Then I stationed some of my servants at the gates so that no load would enter on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the traders and merchants of every kind of merchandise spent the night outside Jerusalem.…



    The Shabbath and the "idea" of the relationship during that time becomes "united" - close to God. It is taking "one" day out of the week and centering oneself on God. Everything has to come to a stop - or has to come to a rest. Nehemiah had "closed" the gates to the city as to "not" burden the people on the Shabbath. Nehemiah (also) made this point about the Shabbath - their ancestors did the same thing and brought the wrath of God down on the city. If you read John 2 - Jesus was angry enough to get out the whip! As the verse states, "So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” 17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”


    The confusion is what was the purpose of the Eruv, what is it suppose to prevent? The carrying of object from public to a private domain? My point is that I think it's more than that? Basing my opinion on the book of Nehemiah. Nehemiah instituted reforms that strengthened their future observance. Nehemiah had "guarded" the people from desecrating the Shabbath but why (in Jesus's time) didn't the Rabbi's cleanse out the temple themselves?

    I don't believe that you can "fence" around the laws of Shabbath but you can attend to everyday "necessities" of living and transportation during those times, and as the people have done - set up parameters.


    What's The Point Of An Eruv?
    The Halacha of Eruvim.


    Note: Fences may be used as part of the boundary without modification; however, if the ground is eroded beneath the fence to any significant degree, the space must be filled in. Lastly, all the areas to be enclosed must be "residential areas," or areas suitable for residential areas. It is not permitted to include cemeteries or bodies of water (such as lakes, streams, and ponds). Such areas must be excluded from the Eruv by enclosing them (either by not including them in the Eruv area, or by encircling them within the Eruv).

    An Eruv is generally designed by encircling a community with a continuous string or wire. There are numerous regulations concerning the placement of this wire. Those who live in and use an Eruv have an obligation to ensure that the Eruv is intact before taking advantage of its presence. Usually, there is a group that maintains the Eruv that provides such information, and conducts weekly inspections.
    The purpose is stated in the message, "He was told that this was the place where God would "dwell" among his people" - creating a place for uniting the Jewish people with God! No matter where you're located or live, you can always "create" a place (even within your own home) as a designated place where you can rest and be with God.


    But Nehemiah did more than rebuild a wall, as we will learn. This book is also the story of the restoring of a people from ruin and despair to a new walk with God. Jerusalem is not only an historic city which has for centuries been the center of the life of the nation of Israel (and, in fact, the center of the biblical record), it is also a symbolic city. Jerusalem is also used in a pictorial sense throughout the Scriptures. What it pictures is the place where God desires to dwell. When the city was first designated to King David as the place where God wanted him to build the temple, he was told that this was the place where God would dwell among his people.
    Last edited by Marta; 02-15-2017, 03:02 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.
      In thought - Sparko, the idea was that "anything" (meaning goods to sell or to trade) that were brought into the city (eruv - is in the same respect, as within the city walls of Jerusalem) was (and under Nehemiah) forbidden - it was considered under "burdening" the congregation in a sense. Under law, and dealing with the parameters of Tircha D'Tzibbur, it could constitute as burdening the congregation or disrupting "that rest" on the Shabbath. It was forbidden to do business on that day whether it was within the city or outside of the city. However, the prophet "slept" outside the perimeter of the city to prevent anything from "burdening" the community. Hopefully, I am not in error on this subject:

      Jeremiah and the Prohibition of Carrying


      Jeremiah 17:19–27 condemns mercantile pursuits that involve carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.”[5] Moreover, although in context Jeremiah is condemning business practices, which he illustrates with the imagery of people carrying bundles of their wares out to the marketplace, later readers of this passage saw especially in verses 21–22 a more general proscription against carrying, and thus used it to form a more general prescriptive Sabbath law.

      ירמיה יז:כא כֹּ֚ה אָמַ֣ר יְ-הֹוָ֔ה הִשָּׁמְר֖וּ בְּנַפְשֽׁוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם וְאַל־תִּשְׂא֤וּ מַשָּׂא֙ בְּי֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת וַהֲבֵאתֶ֖ם בְּשַׁעֲרֵ֥י יְרוּשָׁלִָֽם: יז:כב וְלֹא־תוֹצִ֨יאוּ מַשָּׂ֤א מִבָּֽתֵּיכֶם֙ בְּי֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת וְכָל־מְלָאכָ֖ה לֹ֣א תַֽעֲשׂ֑וּ וְקִדַּשְׁתֶּם֙ אֶת־י֣וֹם הַשַּׁבָּ֔ת כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוִּ֖יתִי אֶת־אֲבוֹתֵיכֶֽם:
      Jer 17:21 Thus said the Yhwh: Guard yourselves for your own sake against carrying burdens on the Sabbath day, and bringing them through the gates of Jerusalem. 17:22 Nor shall you carry out burdens from your houses on the Sabbath day, or do any work, but you shall hallow the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

      The Thirty-Nine Categories of Sabbath Work - Carrying is only "one" area that is prohibited:

      nswer: The Mishna [Shabbat 7:2] lists the major categories of work that are prohibited on Shabbat: The primary forms of work are forty less one, … carrying out from one domain to another. Thus carrying is one of the main archetypal forms of labour on Shabbat.

      The Halacha divides the world into four different kinds of areas, known as domains; a public domain, a private domain, a Carmelit and an exempt place. It is forbidden to carry from a private domain into a public domain or Carmelit (or vice versa). There are rules about carrying within each of these domains.

      A private domain is an area that is enclosed by walls with only a minimal number of gaps for windows and doors. Carrying is permitted in a private domain. A public domain is a large public area where 600,000 people pass through each day. There is much debate as to how this is calculated, but only the most densely populated cities qualify as a public domain. It is forbidden to carry for a distance of more than four Amot (roughly two meters) in a public domain. A Carmelit is between public and private – it does not have walls so it does not count as being private and it does not have enough people in it to be considered public. The Rabbis have decreed that a Carmelit is to be treated as a public place and therefore carrying is forbidden within it. A Carmelit may be transformed into a private domain by surrounding it with walls and this is called an Eruv.. Once the Carmelit has been enclosed, carrying within it is permitted. An exempt place is so small that it does not qualify as being a space at all. Cycling on Shabbat (II) – Carrying

      *********************



      The subject - as a whole, is the word "burden" - as scripture states, "Guard yourselves for your own sake against carrying burdens on the Sabbath day". Again, the idea of carrying is listed as labor - and then, as noted: carrying a “load” or “burden (משא)” through the gates of Jerusalem—but the passage does not define what qualifies as a “burden.” Burden can constitute something that is a duty, obligation, or responsibility - as in the New Testament, it states, in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. And viewing this same line out of Matthew, "Cast your burden upon Hashem and He will sustain you."

      There's a beautiful sentiment about this

      The implication of this verse is that when one is confronted with a problem, not only can he feel secure that Hashem will help him deal with and overcome it, but he can take that problem and, so to speak, "throw it upon Hashem" - He can "cast". He can relieve himself from the worry and anxiety caused by it by "CASTING IT UPON HASHEM" so that he can feel that it has now become Hashem's burden and not his problem any longer. "BEHOLD, I WILL TRUST IN G-D, my SAVIOR, and WILL NOT FEAR, etc..." Reflections of the Heart

      Many things constitute "Carrying" - but again, the thought is "CASTING" those burdens - loads/work "AWAY" for one day and centering on God.



      Sparko, I don't mean to be confusing, however, some categories of prohibitions on Shabbat might have a double meaning to them - or a larger meaning. Even according to Jeremiah and Nehemiah, I believe, was they were centralizing "Shabbath" regulations. So it's my bad
      Last edited by Marta; 02-16-2017, 02:51 PM.

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      • #18
        nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          really? I couldn't follow a thing she said.
          Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

            The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.
            Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
              If you're driving a four cylinder internal combustion vehicle at 3,000 RPM for 45 minutes, you will have broken the Sabbath 5.4 million times before you get to the synagogue.
              When I Survey....

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

                The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.
                It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
                  It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

                  Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.
                  Last edited by Sparko; 02-17-2017, 07:52 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
                      It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.

                      Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.

                      Here's a relevant section from the Mishnah: http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Chullin.8.4?lang=bi

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by psstein View Post
                        It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.
                        Yet IIRC the test case in the Torah is someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, which doesn't sound all that creative to me.
                        Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.
                        Yep, that I'm clear on - it's just that, with your particular example, the prohibition is based on pagan worship practice (the ritual boiling of a kid in its mother's milk), and it's kind of difficult to accidentally worship something.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                          Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.

                          Wasn't it a mind opener - getting into the information drew some scriptural passages with me from the New Testament about the Shabbath. What came to my mind was how Jesus was angered by the selling and the exchanging money, or working on the Shabbath (as scripture states, "When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover) and emphasizing the verse toward the end, "Zeal for your house will consume me.”


                          That same "Zeal" Jesus showed = Nehemiah orders to close the gates at sunset on Friday (Nehemiah testify in word, and threaten forcible action which effectually removed the evil. Same thing), but then; he requires the Levites to cleanse themselves and to guard the gates so that no one violates the Sabbath. These scriptural points were identical in their display of temperaments so that it was understandable among the people to "remember" what the Shabbath was and who it was for. As I asked this question, "The way Jesus ordered all of it out of the temple area - would have been what Nehemiah had ordered! As he warned the merchants of his day:

                          But the merchants camp outside the walls of the city. Even this, Nehemiah forbids, warning that if they do it again, he will send men out after them. This passage teaches us that those who find themselves in positions of influence toward God’s people are responsible to exercise that influence to guard the sanctity of His holy day.


                          "God said to Israel, “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15). He required the people "after being slaves for 400 years" to rest and to unburden themselves from the bondage.


                          Shamor: To Observe



                          Most English speakers see the word "work" and think of it in the English sense of the word: physical labor and effort, or employment. Under this definition, lighting a match would be permitted, because it does not require effort, but a waiter would not be permitted to serve food on Shabbat, because that is his employment. Jewish law prohibits the former and permits the latter. Many English speakers therefore conclude that Jewish law does not make any sense.

                          The problem lies not in Jewish law, but in the definition that English speakers are using. The Torah does not prohibit "work" in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits "melachah" (Mem-Lamed-Alef-Kaf-Heh), which is usually translated as "work", but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word "melachah".

                          Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. (In Other Words - Slavery, or a form of Slavery)
                          The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which God ceased from doing on the seventh day. Note that God's work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done.



                          Reference:

                          Read the Scripture: Nehemiah 13:15-22

                          Shabbat: Shamor: To Observe
                          Last edited by Marta; 02-17-2017, 05:29 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                            Good point.

                            Title: This article discusses your comment

                            So what does one do if one cannot close the area with doors?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

                              Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.
                              Didn't say that it was a burden - What I said was that during Shabbath people should be "free" of burdens and referencing to the fact that you should "Cast" your burden onto God. Even Jesus said the same thing:

                              28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.
                                New post on Shabbath - since this isn't getting us anywhere. Subject, “shamor” – guard and observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy. “shamor,” the legal, ritualistic observance of the commandments of the day regarding work.

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