Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 32

Thread: The Eruv

  1. #1
    40th Mojave Summer DesertBerean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Barstow, CA
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    5,359
    Amen (Given)
    4347
    Amen (Received)
    1569

    The Eruv

    Interesting read about how Jews in New York avoid the prohibition on carrying things in public on the Sabbath:

    http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php...m_campaign=FBK

    I still can't seem to understand the logic behind some of their prohibitions. I've tried, but the few articles I find don't seen to be written for a poor Gentile like me...

  2. #2
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    30,526
    Amen (Given)
    2568
    Amen (Received)
    15132
    It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

    The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.

  3. Amen DesertBerean, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  4. #3
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    47
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    15
    The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
    Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.

  5. #4
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    30,526
    Amen (Given)
    2568
    Amen (Received)
    15132
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Passing Through View Post
    The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
    Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.
    yeesh. Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?

    Yep. Orthodox Jews are just as Pharisaical as always.

  6. #5
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Faith
    Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,276
    Amen (Given)
    168
    Amen (Received)
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?
    Good point.
    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

  7. Amen DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  8. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Faith
    Roman Catholic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,421
    Amen (Given)
    193
    Amen (Received)
    568
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    yeesh. Why can't they just say that the ocean around Manhattan is the boundary?
    The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.

  9. #7
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    30,526
    Amen (Given)
    2568
    Amen (Received)
    15132
    Quote Originally Posted by psstein View Post
    The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.
    Well considering they have most of Manhattan already surrounded by the Eruv wire, it would not make much difference. Besides, even if the distance was greater than they could travel on the sabbath, doesn't mean they have to travel it.

  10. #8
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Orion Arm
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    609
    Amen (Given)
    107
    Amen (Received)
    287
    Quote Originally Posted by psstein View Post
    The Talmud sets a distance beyond which one cannot travel on the Sabbath. That's why.
    It was called a Sabbath Day's Journey, I believe a little less than a mile. It was the distance the Israelites were allowed to travel within the camp in the wilderness from the farthest point of the camp to the tabernacle. They figured that if they were allowed to travel that distance, it was okay.

  11. #9
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    30,526
    Amen (Given)
    2568
    Amen (Received)
    15132
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    It was called a Sabbath Day's Journey, I believe a little less than a mile. It was the distance the Israelites were allowed to travel within the camp in the wilderness from the farthest point of the camp to the tabernacle. They figured that if they were allowed to travel that distance, it was okay.
    well then, the eruv is already twice as large as that in width alone.


    eruv_0.jpg

  12. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Midwest
    Faith
    Unorthodox
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    289
    Amen (Given)
    7
    Amen (Received)
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Passing Through View Post
    The command against carrying things on the Sabbath is derived from Jeremiah 17:19-27, where Jeremiah tells people not to carry a load through the city gate. He also mentions not carrying a load out of your houses, but that seems to be a secondary consideration. So they concluded what they have in common is not where you are carrying something, but that you should not carry something across a boundary or property line, since you could apparently carry things at home and you could carry things within the city. The eruv establish community boundary lines so that there is a clear area in which carrying would be allowed.
    Yes, the Jews do go to extremes to create loopholes for the law, but this one isn't as much of a stretch as it might seem. All Manhattan isn't their "home" just because it's inside the wires. It is their community, whose gate they aren't supposed to cross. What seems silly to me is that if the wire breaks, suddenly the community no longer exists, and it becomes sinful to carry anything anywhere on the Sabbath.
    Nehemiah’s Final Reforms: This first line out of Nehemiah is very important. There seems to be correlations between Jesus and the moneychangers with how Nehemiah was explaining the law to the people about the Shabbath. Nehemiah reorganize the way the temple system ran but also, introduced back the assembly of the people to “hear” and “listen” to the law on the Shabbath.

    Nehemiah 8


    2 So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. 3 He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand. And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law. 4 Ezra the teacher of the Law stood on a high wooden platform built for the occasion.

    As the people stood around listening/hearing the law being read, it must of felt like music to one’s ears. The Jewish people needed a leader and away to set things right with God. Nehemiah brought this to the people – if you read the passages prior, you will find out that the people were even charging interest on money to their own people:


    Nehemiah Helps the Poor – Chapter 5

    5 Now the men and their wives raised a great outcry against their fellow Jews. 2 Some were saying, “We and our sons and daughters are numerous; in order for us to eat and stay alive, we must get grain.”
    3 Others were saying, “We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards and our homes to get grain during the famine.”
    4 Still others were saying, “We have had to borrow money to pay the king’s tax on our fields and vineyards. 5 Although we are of the same flesh and blood as our fellow Jews and though our children are as good as theirs, yet we have to subject our sons and daughters to slavery. Some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but we are powerless, because our fields and our vineyards belong to others.”
    6 When I heard their outcry and these charges, I was very angry. 7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, “You are charging your own people interest!” So I called together a large meeting to deal with them 8 and said: “As far as possible, we have bought back our fellow Jews who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your own people, only for them to be sold back to us!”



    14 Remember me for this, my God, and do not blot out what I have so faithfully done for the house of my God and its services.


    15 In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”

    19 When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21 But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. 22 Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.

    Remember me for this also, my God, and show mercy to me according to your great love.

    ************


    So, What makes the comment that Nehemiah said to the people (What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day?) any different than the passage coming out of Matthew with the money changers? Jesus Cleanses the Temple - the title to the page:


    11 The crowds replied, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.” 12 Then Jesus went into the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13 And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”…

    Didn't Nehemiah go to the people in the same way that Jesus did - Jesus wasn't acting any different than Nehemiah when it came to his anger? "13 I also shook out the folds of my robe and said, “In this way may God shake out of their house and possessions anyone who does not keep this promise. So may such a person be shaken out and emptied!”

    What the Shabbath represented was God’s rest – Genesis. The apostle Paul said that some will not enter God’s rest, “3Now we who have believed enter that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said:“So I swore on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter My rest.’”And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world. 4For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.”…

    Like the Great Shabbat coming out of Egypt - the people shared what they had with others who didn't have. This was a day to rejoice and be with family and friends who shared in that happiness because the Shabbath was a day of rest (7th day). The Shabbath was a day for "everyone". The Shabbat is the “Bride” or “Queen” of Judaism. Around the Shabbat is the religion of Moses, David, Isaiah, Nehemiah and Yeshua based. Everything in Judaism and certainly the entire Bible orbits the Shabbat.

    The first occasion would suggest a pattern for all the created order to follow, e.g., taking a day for spiritual refreshing after six days of labor. The second cause for Shabbat (Ex 20:8-11) was uniquely the heritage of the Chosen People. Those whose ancestry had been liberated by God from Egyptian slavery were privileged to forever commemorate that liberation from unrelenting bondage by honoring the rest day of freed men. This is one reason we find the Passover Exodus experience and the keeping of Shabbat so intertwined both in Scripture and Jewish liturgy.


    The Eruv:

    A community eruv refers to the legal aggregation or "mixture" under Jewish religious property law of separate parcels of property meeting certain requirements into a single parcel held in common by all the holders of the original parcels, which enables Jews who observe the traditional rules concerning Shabbat to carry children and belongings anywhere within the jointly held property without transgressing the prohibition against carrying a burden across a property line on Jewish Sabbath. The legal aggregation is set up to have effect on Shabbat and Yom Kippur only; on all other days, including Yom Tov, ordinary property ownership applies. A valid aggregation has a number of requirements including an agreement among the property-holders and an aggregation ritual.
    An eruv; Hebrew: עירוב‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin is a ritual enclosure that some Jewish communities, and especially Orthodox Jewish communities, constructed in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur. An eruv accomplishes this by integrating a number of private and public properties into one larger private domain, thereby avoiding restrictions on carrying objects from the private to the public domain on Sabbath and holidays.
    Last edited by Marta; 02-14-2017 at 04:55 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •