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Thread: The Eruv

  1. #21
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
    If you're driving a four cylinder internal combustion vehicle at 3,000 RPM for 45 minutes, you will have broken the Sabbath 5.4 million times before you get to the synagogue.

  2. #22
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    It strikes me as "cheating" - If they truly believe in the sabbath and the rules, they would not try to invent "loop holes" to not actually observe it. They are trying to cheat by artificially calling an entire city their "private home" - which it clearly is not.

    The whole restrictions on working and carrying on the sabbath have gotten way to extreme in the first place, to not even being able to work a light switch on the sabbath or push an elevator button. It is as bad as the Pharisees in the bible were with creating too many rules and restrictions. But now, to get around their own self imposed restrictions, they create new loop holes to let them cheat. God is probably up there shaking his head in amusement at their antics.
    It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.

    I'm always still in trouble again

  3. #23
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
    It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

    Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.
    Last edited by Sparko; 02-17-2017 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #24
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It's like Catholics who in earlier centuries would lower a chunk of meat into a well and "fish it out" on Friday in order to get around the prohibition against eating meat on that day.

  5. #25
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Well, the basic prohibition is against working on the sabbath. Since "work" isn't explicitly designed, the intent of the extra laws is to make sure one doesn't accidentally violate the main prohibition. The scribes got a little carried away with that, IMO. It seems to me that the intent of the "sabbath day's journey" was to limit not so much how far one could go, but where one could go (i.e., the tabernacle). Given that driving takes rather less energy than walking, and that going to worship at synagogue would seem to be something which God would encourage, it seems faintly ridiculous to me that, e.g., driving 45 minutes to synagogue (or even bringing a dish of food along) would violate anything.
    It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.

    Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.

    Here's a relevant section from the Mishnah: http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Chullin.8.4?lang=bi

  6. #26
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psstein View Post
    It's creative work that is forbidden, not work more generally. The reason driving is forbidden (at least by the Orthodox) is that it makes use of creative energy.
    Yet IIRC the test case in the Torah is someone picking up sticks on the Sabbath, which doesn't sound all that creative to me.
    Many of the restrictions that Orthodox Jewry (and some Conservative Jews, though an increasingly vanishing group in Conservatism) holds to are largely designed to prevent the commandment from being broken at all. For example, the prohibition against eating chicken with dairy is designed to prevent accidental transgression.
    Yep, that I'm clear on - it's just that, with your particular example, the prohibition is based on pagan worship practice (the ritual boiling of a kid in its mother's milk), and it's kind of difficult to accidentally worship something.
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  7. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertBerean View Post
    Lol... I guess it depends on what one is looking for. The info I had been looking at was way over my head in terms of explaining their mindset. I believe Marta was able to help me out. Doesn't mean I understand it ALL... I just got a clue into seeing where they're coming from.

    Wasn't it a mind opener - getting into the information drew some scriptural passages with me from the New Testament about the Shabbath. What came to my mind was how Jesus was angered by the selling and the exchanging money, or working on the Shabbath (as scripture states, "When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover) and emphasizing the verse toward the end, "Zeal for your house will consume me.”


    That same "Zeal" Jesus showed = Nehemiah orders to close the gates at sunset on Friday (Nehemiah testify in word, and threaten forcible action which effectually removed the evil. Same thing), but then; he requires the Levites to cleanse themselves and to guard the gates so that no one violates the Sabbath. These scriptural points were identical in their display of temperaments so that it was understandable among the people to "remember" what the Shabbath was and who it was for. As I asked this question, "The way Jesus ordered all of it out of the temple area - would have been what Nehemiah had ordered! As he warned the merchants of his day:

    But the merchants camp outside the walls of the city. Even this, Nehemiah forbids, warning that if they do it again, he will send men out after them. This passage teaches us that those who find themselves in positions of influence toward God’s people are responsible to exercise that influence to guard the sanctity of His holy day.


    "God said to Israel, “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day” (Deuteronomy 5:15). He required the people "after being slaves for 400 years" to rest and to unburden themselves from the bondage.


    Shamor: To Observe



    Most English speakers see the word "work" and think of it in the English sense of the word: physical labor and effort, or employment. Under this definition, lighting a match would be permitted, because it does not require effort, but a waiter would not be permitted to serve food on Shabbat, because that is his employment. Jewish law prohibits the former and permits the latter. Many English speakers therefore conclude that Jewish law does not make any sense.

    The problem lies not in Jewish law, but in the definition that English speakers are using. The Torah does not prohibit "work" in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits "melachah" (Mem-Lamed-Alef-Kaf-Heh), which is usually translated as "work", but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word "melachah".

    Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. (In Other Words - Slavery, or a form of Slavery)
    The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which God ceased from doing on the seventh day. Note that God's work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done.



    Reference:

    Read the Scripture: Nehemiah 13:15-22

    Shabbat: Shamor: To Observe
    Last edited by Marta; 02-17-2017 at 11:29 PM.

  8. #28
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansgeorg View Post
    Good point.

    Title: This article discusses your comment

    So what does one do if one cannot close the area with doors?

  9. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    It's like Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. God gave us the sabbath as a GIFT not a burden.

    Men created their own onerous rules to burden themselves, and then they come up with ways to cheat on those rules that God never intended in the first place.
    Didn't say that it was a burden - What I said was that during Shabbath people should be "free" of burdens and referencing to the fact that you should "Cast" your burden onto God. Even Jesus said the same thing:

    28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

  10. #30
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    nope still not getting your point. I never asked about the history of the subject. I was pointing out the legalistic and ridiculous idea in the first place and how the whole thing is nothing but a "cheat" in the first place.
    New post on Shabbath - since this isn't getting us anywhere. Subject, “shamor” – guard and observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy. “shamor,” the legal, ritualistic observance of the commandments of the day regarding work.

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