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  • How to Argue

    I'm a fan of a podcast called Love + Radio. The podcast started off pretty experimental. You'd get weird stories that were a mix of truth and fiction, and lots of experimental stuff, and whatnot, but over time they've focused on intimate interviews with some of the most peculiar and interesting people. One of the people they introduced to listeners maybe a year or two back was Daryl Davis. Some of you may have heard of him already, but this guy is my hero. He is a black Rhythm and Blues musician who has worked with some of the biggest names in the biz, including Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley and a number of others, and on the side, he's worked for years communicating with, and helping to convert high level racists, Grand Dragons in the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazis, and even black racists, to non-racism. He's even had high ranking Klan members send them their hood and robes, which he now displays in his home as trophies. An amazing man and an amazing Christian who is able to be so successful with people because of his particular method of winning people over.

    Recently Love + Radio did a follow up with Davis, and I thought it might be relevant to this sub as maybe a way we can look at the way we discuss things with others and win them over. Below I'll list some Do's and Don'ts from the second interview that Davis uses when attempting to engage with people with drastically different views. Both of the Love + Radio podcasts that feature Davis can be found here. In the second interview, Davis goes into his views on how Trump's presidency has in some ways exposed racial tension that has existed in America under the surface, and I respect that people may not completely agree with him here (I think I do, but with conditions), I still think that much of what he has to say on how to have a discussion with someone you disagree with is well worth listening to.

    Do's

    1.) Gather your information of the other side before engaging. Be as familiar with their side as you are your own. That way you'll know what to expect and how to react, even if it's something you don't want to hear.

    2.) Invite people to have a conversation, not a debate. People will open up because everyone wants to be heard without feeling they need to be on the defensive.

    3.) Look for commonalities, and then build on them. Once people find the things they have in common, the things we have in contrast begin to fade away. The relationship begins to blossom into a friendship.

    4.) When two enemies are talking they're not fighting. When the talking ceases the ground becomes fertile for violence. The more you talk the more commonalities you'll find.

    5.) Patience is a virtue. Patience doesn't mean sitting around and talking with your friends, but being proactive. While you are actively learning about someone else, you are passively teaching them about yourself. You only have one chance to make a good impression.


    Don'ts

    1.) You can be argumentative, but don't be condescending. Don't be insulting. You are going to hear things you don't like, and even things you know are wrong. Not just opinions, but actual facts that they've gotten wrong. You can correct them, but don't do it in a condescending manner because you know they're wrong.

    2.) Don't explain someone else's position for them (even if you know it). Let them explain it, and then address the points that they bring up.




    So that's all there is to it really. I imagine whether anyone uses these methods will depend on a number of factors. I don't think all of these points are necessary all the time. But I think they lay down some very good guidelines for everyone, no matter your worldview. I know that for me they were a good refresher. I can't promise that I'll always stick to them, but they'll definitely be in the back of my head.




  • #2
    How about a moratorium on tu quoque arguments, too? Civics would be so much more interesting that way.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      I'm a fan of a podcast called Love + Radio. The podcast started off pretty experimental. You'd get weird stories that were a mix of truth and fiction, and lots of experimental stuff, and whatnot, but over time they've focused on intimate interviews with some of the most peculiar and interesting people. One of the people they introduced to listeners maybe a year or two back was Daryl Davis. Some of you may have heard of him already, but this guy is my hero. He is a black Rhythm and Blues musician who has worked with some of the biggest names in the biz, including Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley and a number of others, and on the side, he's worked for years communicating with, and helping to convert high level racists, Grand Dragons in the Ku Klux Klan, Neo-Nazis, and even black racists, to non-racism. He's even had high ranking Klan members send them their hood and robes, which he now displays in his home as trophies. An amazing man and an amazing Christian who is able to be so successful with people because of his particular method of winning people over.

      Recently Love + Radio did a follow up with Davis, and I thought it might be relevant to this sub as maybe a way we can look at the way we discuss things with others and win them over. Below I'll list some Do's and Don'ts from the second interview that Davis uses when attempting to engage with people with drastically different views. Both of the Love + Radio podcasts that feature Davis can be found here. In the second interview, Davis goes into his views on how Trump's presidency has in some ways exposed racial tension that has existed in America under the surface, and I respect that people may not completely agree with him here (I think I do, but with conditions), I still think that much of what he has to say on how to have a discussion with someone you disagree with is well worth listening to.

      Do's

      1.) Gather your information of the other side before engaging. Be as familiar with their side as you are your own. That way you'll know what to expect and how to react, even if it's something you don't want to hear.

      2.) Invite people to have a conversation, not a debate. People will open up because everyone wants to be heard without feeling they need to be on the defensive.

      3.) Look for commonalities, and then build on them. Once people find the things they have in common, the things we have in contrast begin to fade away. The relationship begins to blossom into a friendship.

      4.) When two enemies are talking they're not fighting. When the talking ceases the ground becomes fertile for violence. The more you talk the more commonalities you'll find.

      5.) Patience is a virtue. Patience doesn't mean sitting around and talking with your friends, but being proactive. While you are actively learning about someone else, you are passively teaching them about yourself. You only have one chance to make a good impression.


      Don'ts

      1.) You can be argumentative, but don't be condescending. Don't be insulting. You are going to hear things you don't like, and even things you know are wrong. Not just opinions, but actual facts that they've gotten wrong. You can correct them, but don't do it in a condescending manner because you know they're wrong.

      2.) Don't explain someone else's position for them (even if you know it). Let them explain it, and then address the points that they bring up.




      So that's all there is to it really. I imagine whether anyone uses these methods will depend on a number of factors. I don't think all of these points are necessary all the time. But I think they lay down some very good guidelines for everyone, no matter your worldview. I know that for me they were a good refresher. I can't promise that I'll always stick to them, but they'll definitely be in the back of my head.



      Look at you being all reasonable in Civics.
      "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
      Hear my cry, hear my shout,
      Save me, save me"

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with all of these Do's and Don'ts.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
          I agree with all of these Do's and Don'ts.
          Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. for example if there is an apostrophe in [Do's] then you need an apostrophe in [Don'ts] in the same place. It should be Don't's


          Comment


          • #6
            You're taking all the fun out Adrift!
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. for example if there is an apostrophe in [Do's] then you need an apostrophe in [Don'ts] in the same place. It should be Don't's

              You know, I actually thought about that before I posted, and the interwebz told me that what I thought looked right was good enough, so I went with it.


              What's the Trouble? The spelling of do's and don'ts is inconsistent.

              Generally, you don't use apostrophes to make words or abbreviations plural (e.g., CDs, 1970s, hats), but English has a few exceptions. For example, you can use apostrophes when they help eliminate confusion, which happens most often with single letters. Mind your p's and q's is the typical spelling, and we write that the word aardvark has 3 a's, not 3 as.

              Dos and don'ts is an especially unusual exception. The apostrophe in the contraction doesn't seems to make people want to use an apostrophe to make do plural (do's and don'ts), but then to be consistent, you'd also have to use an apostrophe to make don't plural, which becomes downright ugly (do's and don't's).

              Style guides and usage books don't agree.
              • The Chicago Manual of Style and others recommend dos and don'ts.
              • The Associated Press and others recommend do's and don'ts.
              • Eats, Shoots & Leaves recommends do's and don't's.



              What Should You Do? Unless your editor wishes otherwise, if you write books, spell it dos and don'ts; and if you write for newspapers, magazines, or the Web, spell it do's and don'ts. If you're writing for yourself, spell it any way you want. Just be consistent.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't have a problem with people using apostrophes in a way that may be technically incorrect but that clarifies things.

                Example: The other day, I was delivering to a family with the last name Adam. They had a sign in front of their house that said "The Adam's". Normally you wouldn't use an apostrophe there but since Adams is a much more common last name than Adam, it made sense to eliminate confusion.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. for example if there is an apostrophe in [Do's] then you need an apostrophe in [Don'ts] in the same place. It should be Don't's

                  If it's to go in the same place, shouldn't it be Do's and Do'nts?
                  "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                  --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    If it's to go in the same place, shouldn't it be Do's and Do'nts?
                    Great name for a donut shop.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                      If it's to go in the same place, shouldn't it be Do's and Do'nts?
                      Now you are just being obstructionist! I have no recourse other than to start a campaign to burn you at the stake.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I don't have a problem with people using apostrophes in a way that may be technically incorrect but that clarifies things.

                        Example: The other day, I was delivering to a family with the last name Adam. They had a sign in front of their house that said "The Adam's". Normally you wouldn't use an apostrophe there but since Adams is a much more common last name than Adam, it made sense to eliminate confusion.
                        I still struggle with putting punctuation marks inside quotation marks, which is grammatically correct. I always want to think of the punctuation as part of what is quoted, which isn't necessarily the case. For my otherwise generally correct grammar and punctuation, that's one rule that always trips me up.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. for example if there is an apostrophe in [Do's] then you need an apostrophe in [Don'ts] in the same place. It should be Don't's

                          What if you want to write about things belonging to the "don't's"? If you want to ask about that final "s", would you ask about the don't's' s?
                          We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                          - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                          In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                          Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                            What if you want to write about things belonging to the "don't's"? If you want to ask about that final "s", would you ask about the don't's' s?
                            I think that would be the don't's'.
                            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                              What if you want to write about things belonging to the "don't's"? If you want to ask about that final "s", would you ask about the don't's' s?

                              Comment

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