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  • #16
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Chapter and verse, please.
    Starlight is once again exhibiting his profound ignorance concerning Christianity. What he offers is even beyond straw man depictions

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Starlight is once again exhibiting his profound ignorance concerning Christianity. What he offers is even beyond straw man depictions

      Yup.

      I wanted his source. I know he doesn't have one, at least scripturally.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
        Don't you live in Canada?
        Just a note... American citizens can still vote for president even if they are currently dwelling in another country. Do you think all of those in military service stationed overseas cannot vote for president?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Yup.

          I wanted his source. I know he doesn't have one, at least scripturally.
          I believe it comes from Thomas Aquinas's work Summa Theologica (specifically, Question 94 of the Supplement). While Thomas Aquinas is certainly very respected by some, his works are not doctrine. In fact, even if his writings were doctrine, this still wouldn't count, because it comes from the Supplement to Summa Theologica. Aquinas died before completing Summa Theologica, so someone else added the Supplement to complete it.
          Last edited by Terraceth; 02-17-2017, 10:08 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Yup.

            I wanted his source. I know he doesn't have one, at least scripturally.
            Oh, I'm sure he can quote you a passage of scripture, but he'll have to mangle it beyond recognition to get it to say what he claims it says. Then he'll try and convince us that his interpretation is the "original" meaning and that he knows better than centuries of Christian tradition.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I preferred Trump to Hillary precisely because of the sort of reactions it's producing in the US population. Hopefully it will wake up millennials and get them into politics and voting for the rest of their lives.

              It's also showing a very dark side to conservatives where they hate liberals more than they care about their country, so as they burn down their country and everyone in it they're happy because they can see liberals suffering. It's kinda like the old horrible Christian doctrine that part of the saints' joy in heaven comes from seeing the sinners suffering in hell, but modified so that everyone is in hell but some feel good about it because their hatred for others burns brighter than the flames so they're getting joy out of the suffering of others.
              projecting again? the only hate and burning is being done by the liberals. watch the news.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                Chapter and verse, please.
                Actually, let's start with which book.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I preferred Trump to Hillary precisely because of the sort of reactions it's producing in the US population. Hopefully it will wake up millennials and get them into politics and voting for the rest of their lives.
                  I don't remember your pulling for Trump

                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  It's also showing a very dark side to conservatives where they hate liberals more than they care about their country, so as they burn down their country and everyone in it they're happy because they can see liberals suffering. It's kinda like the old horrible Christian doctrine that part of the saints' joy in heaven comes from seeing the sinners suffering in hell, but modified so that everyone is in hell but some feel good about it because their hatred for others burns brighter than the flames so they're getting joy out of the suffering of others.
                  Feel the conservative anger and hatred as they seek to burn down the country


                  Btw, considering your hatred for everything about the U.S. you should be pleased rather than griping.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Actually, let's start with which book.
                    Well it is not one found in the Bible.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      I preferred Trump to Hillary....
                      No you didn't. You were the one gibbering about the Trumpocalypse when it became clear he had a good shot at winning.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        No you didn't. You were the one gibbering about the Trumpocalypse when it became clear he had a good shot at winning.
                        I believe the theoretical Trumpocalypse was the reason for stars preference for Trump. It may not snap far right ideologues out of their delusions, it certainly won't move the deplorables in that party, but it might finally wake up the liberals from their sleep, as well as the sane moderates on both sides.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                          I believe it comes from Thomas Aquinas's work Summa Theologica (specifically, Question 94 of the Supplement).
                          True. But there are others.

                          Tertullian, De Spectaculis, Chapter 30
                          "Which sight gives me joy? As I see... illustrious monarchs... groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers... as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of... Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors... in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows... What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.”


                          Peter Lombard, Sentences, iv 50
                          The elect will behold the torture of the impious and as they see them they will not grieve. Their minds will be sated with joy as they gaze on the unspeakable anguish of the impious, returning thanks for their own freedom.


                          Aquinas, Summa Theologica supplement question 94
                          in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned....

                          That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them.


                          Jonathan Edwards, "The Eternity of Hell Torments" in The Wrath of Almighty God
                          The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven...
                          The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever.


                          While Thomas Aquinas is certainly very respected by some, his works are not doctrine. In fact, even if his writings were doctrine, this still wouldn't count, because it comes from the Supplement to Summa Theologica. Aquinas died before completing Summa Theologica, so someone else added the Supplement to complete it.
                          Aquinas' work was widely used for centuries as if it were definitive. But more relevantly here he's really citing Lombard, who's work became the standard textbook in theology for centuries.


                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          I wanted his source. I know he doesn't have one, at least scripturally.
                          As far as biblical passages go, one of the more-cited in this context is Isa 66:22-24:
                          For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make... all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the Lord. And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
                          That passage is often taken to imply that the saints can 'look at' the damned, and that it increases their desire to 'worship' God upon seeing his justice.

                          As a result theologians have grappled with the questions of (a) what knowledge do the saints have of those in hell? and (b) how does that knowledge make them feel? Due to this passage, and also Jesus' parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and also a philosophical belief that the saints in heaven will have a great deal of knowledge given to them by God, a lot of theologians have come down on the side of believing that the saints have a great deal of knowledge about the torments being experienced by those suffering in hell. (e.g. Augustine of Hippo: "those who shall be in torment shall not know what is going on within the joy of the Lord; but they who shall enter into that joy shall know what is going on outside in the outer darkness." City of God 20:22) As to the question of how the knowledge makes them feel, theologians have tended to trip over themselves to reassure anxious believers that they won't feel bad about any family or friends that end up in hell and that their own experience of heaven won't be forever-tainted by the thought of someone else suffering... their explanations as to why have been varied but a common go-to idea is that you'll approve so much of the justice of God that you'll view their suffering as a good thing and not a bad thing and thus something to take joy in not something to feel sorry for.


                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Starlight is once again exhibiting his profound ignorance concerning Christianity. What he offers is even beyond straw man depictions
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Then he'll try and convince us that his interpretation is the "original" meaning and that he knows better than centuries of Christian tradition.
                          Your levels of ignorance are beautiful to behold.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            I believe the theoretical Trumpocalypse was the reason for stars preference for Trump. It may not snap far right ideologues out of their delusions, it certainly won't move the deplorables in that party, but it might finally wake up the liberals from their sleep, as well as the sane moderates on both sides.
                            Revisionist history at its finest. It's certainly made liberals continue to gibber.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Is this for real?
                              The last Christian left at tweb

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                True. But there are others.

                                Tertullian, De Spectaculis, Chapter 30
                                "Which sight gives me joy? As I see... illustrious monarchs... groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers... as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of... Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors... in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows... What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination.”
                                Well, let's include the whole chapter, shall we?
                                Source: Tertullian, De Spectaculis Ch. 30

                                [1] But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One! What that exultation of the angelic hosts! What the glory of the rising saints! What the kingdom of the just thereafter! What the city New Jerusalem! [2] Yes, and there are other sights: that last day of judgment, with its everlasting issues; that day unlooked for by the nations, the theme of their derision, when the world hoary with age, and all its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! [3] How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?--as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. [4] What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! [5] I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord. [6] "This," I shall say, "this is that carpenter's or hireling's son, that Sabbath-breaker, that Samaritan and devil-possessed! This is He whom you purchased from Judas! This is He whom you struck with reed and fist, whom you contemptuously spat upon, to whom you gave gall and vinegar to drink! This is He whom His disciples secretly stole away, that it might be said He had risen again, or the gardener abstracted, that his lettuces might come to no harm from the crowds of visitants!" [7] What quaestor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favour of seeing and exulting in such things as these? And yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination. But what are the things which eye has not seen, ear has not heard, and which have not so much as dimly dawned upon the human heart? Whatever they are, they are nobler, I believe, than circus, and both theatres,33 and every race-course.

                                © Copyright Original Source


                                Note that this is all about those who arrogantly lifted themselves up against and persecuted Christians, which Starlight conveniently left out.

                                Of course, Tertullian is also infamous for his excessive rigorism and Montanism, so he's hardly a banner of orthodoxy.

                                The other examples he managed to dredge up are from the post-schism West.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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