Abortion

[Sparko]

Your Myopia is showing!

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

(NIV)

[Jedidiah]

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

(NIV)

What is this, Sparky? You responded to yo lunch. You know better than that.

[Sparko]

What is this, Sparky? You responded to yo lunch. You know better than that.

so true.

[yo lunch]

so true.

Why? Am i a Leper or something? A "Troll?" So what? does that mean that you cannot answer questions? Is this a forum for debate or isn't it?! No response just shows me that you have no answers!

[Littlejoe]

Right- hopefully enough time has gone by that we've got the absurd "if 100% of people aborted 100% of the time we would go extinct, therefore we should never abort ever" agument out of our system and can go back to the discussion.

I call my position "pro-people." I don't care about abstract concepts of rights. Rights are important if and because they are good for people. People are the source of value, including the value of rights.

There are two important aspects in which an embryo or early fetus is different from people with full protection of the law: one is that it lacks the capacity to suffer (let alone capacity for volition) and the other is that it depends for its continued existence on the body of a full person, with memories, volition, capacity to suffer and so forth. In late pregnancy a fetus has the capacity to suffer. It resides in the body of a person - though it might be capable of existing outside said person's body - possibly with diminished chances of survival and increased risk of long term damage, depending on the exact stage at which the fetus is born.

Not a very good analogy IMHO...even a baby who is birthed at full term depends on the body of a full person with memories, volition, etc. etc. No child early or late or on time can survive very long without round the clock care.

LJ

[yo lunch]

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

(NIV)

You still don't get it, do you? The salient point is that the fetus was not important! It was the life and welfare of the Expectant Mother that was of prime concern!

No where in the Bible is a word spoken for or against abortion!

[Sparko]

You still don't get it, do you? The salient point is that the fetus was not important! It was the life and welfare of the Expectant Mother that was of prime concern!

No where in the Bible is a word spoken for or against abortion!

do you understand the difference between "premature birth" and "dead?"

If it was aborted it would not be a premature birth would it. That means that the baby is just as important as the life of the mother. If EITHER die as a result of the attack, the attacker would have to give up his life.

[Challenger Grim]

You still don't get it, do you? The salient point is that the fetus was not important! It was the life and welfare of the Expectant Mother that was of prime concern!

No where in the Bible is a word spoken for or against abortion!

Really? What was that one verse... I read it just the other day...

Oh right: THOU SHALL NOT MURDER.

[yo lunch]

Really? What was that one verse... I read it just the other day...

Oh right: THOU SHALL NOT MURDER.

. The guy could beat the woman up and if she miscarries--no capital punishment. However, if the mother dies, then the killer must die.

[Sparko]

. The guy could beat the woman up and if she miscarries--no capital punishment. However, if the mother dies, then the killer must die.

You seem to be the one who is adding things into the text. why am I surprised?

[yo lunch]

You seem to be the one who is adding things into the text. why am I surprised?

Well, wait a minute, i want to be fair here. Let's take a closer look at it here.

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her..." To me, that means a few guys injured a woman to the point that it caused her to lose the baby. You with me so far? It goes on to say that "and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." So, it looks like it's up to the husband what kind of recompense would be levied against the assailants. The fine, if any, would be set by the judges. That is, of course, provided that the pregnant wife does not die. OK?

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." I take that to mean that if the wife dies, then it will mean capital punishment. So, where did I add anything to it?

[Rayado]

You still don't get it, do you? The salient point is that the fetus was not important! It was the life and welfare of the Expectant Mother that was of prime concern!

No where in the Bible is a word spoken for or against abortion!

I find it interesting that your entire assertion rests upon two very flimsy supports: first, the antiquated KJV-era English that is way out of date in terms of usage changes. The Hebrew word for miscarriage, shakol, isn't used in the passage, but the word for live birth--yahtzah--is. The term for the unborn is yeled, which is the Hebrew word for child, which shows pretty strongly that the unborn were considered no different than those who were born. Second, you're reading your own beliefs about the status of the unborn into the passage to justify your reading of it--that's eisegesis.

You're grasping at straws to try to put 'miscarraige' into this passage, or that the unborn is not of equal value than the mother.

[Sparko]

Well, wait a minute, i want to be fair here. Let's take a closer look at it here.

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her..." To me, that means a few guys injured a woman to the point that it caused her to lose the baby. You with me so far? It goes on to say that "and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." So, it looks like it's up to the husband what kind of recompense would be levied against the assailants. The fine, if any, would be set by the judges. That is, of course, provided that the pregnant wife does not die. OK?

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." I take that to mean that if the wife dies, then it will mean capital punishment. So, where did I add anything to it?

You are quoting a 400 year old english translation first of all. You are assuming that "her fruit depart" her means the baby died. But it doesn't say that. giving a premature birth is also "departing her" isn't it? and that is how the NIV translates it. premature birth.

the word for "depart" in hebrew is yatsa

and it means:

1. to cause to go or come out, bring out, lead out
2. to bring out of
3. to lead out
4. to deliver

so a premature birth or unexpected delivery is a better translation in modern english than "depart"



and mischief could mean either the mother or baby dying.

[Littlejoe]

Welcome to of Yo Lunch's school of Biblical interpretation....

"Don't confuse me with facts....my mind is made up"



LJ

[Jedidiah]

Why? Am i a Leper or something? A "Troll?" So what? does that mean that you cannot answer questions? Is this a forum for debate or isn't it?! No response just shows me that you have no answers!

No response just means you are a troll who does not deserve answers. If you want to join in discussion stop acting like a jackass. There are plenty around who feed trolls. I just did not think Sparky was one of them.