Gay Marriage

[Bill Mutz]

When you join the military, you give up many rights. Including that one. That's just life.

Strangely enough, I agree with you on that score. However, your reasoning there actually works both ways. In the military, you have to tolerate a lot of things that you may not especially like. That might include sharing a barracks with someone who could have a sexual interest in you.

Of course, my main interest in the repeal of DADT is that it serves as yet another political victory for the gay rights movement, and it is a very substantial one. It will have a very positive effect on our image to have openly gay men and women serving in the forces that defend our country.

[Bill Mutz]

Anyway, Michael, I am going to get lost for another year. In that time, I might infiltrate the local Presbyterian church. I will see you next Spring.

[themuzicman]

Strangely enough, I agree with you on that score. However, your reasoning there actually works both ways. In the military, you have to tolerate a lot of things that you may not especially like. That might include sharing a barracks with someone who could have a sexual interest in you.

And ultimately that decision is made based upon what makes the most effective fighting force. If having openly gay members of a squad makes the squad less effective, then they can't be openly gay. I think cultures (both gay and straight) may have moved enough that this is minimized today.

Of course, my main interest in the repeal of DADT is that it serves as yet another political victory for the gay rights movement, and it is a very substantial one. It will have a very positive effect on our image to have openly gay men and women serving in the forces that defend our country.

As long as they can function without disrupting the function of the military, that's fine.

[TimZim]

When you join the military, you give up many rights. Including that one. That's just life.

When you say "you," did you mean the whiny jerks like yourself who think its okay to us the gov't to trample everyone else's rights? You loooovve your entitlements don't you, little supremacist, you?

Why don't you explain why you deserve to a have a government issue military ID card if you're married to a person of the opposite sex in the military (or retired military), and a gay person in the same situation does not.

Is that easy enough for you?

Stop using my government for your self serving entitlement programs, please.

[TimZim]

Tim, I have had a lot more experience with Michael than you have.

As i suspected. Typical isn't it?

[Bill Mutz]

As i suspected. Typical isn't it?

Hmm, actually, Michael here has been more strongly reliant on structural functionalist philosophy than others. He is very good at its use, though I'm a leprechaun if he actually bases his beliefs on it. His actual beliefs are based on the Christian Bible, and that's what he actually follows in his everyday life. I suggest acquainting yourself with the criticisms of structural functionalism and other utilitarian systems, though. There are some gaping holes in utilitarian ethical models if you know how to find them.

Also, you should be rehearsed in deontological ethics and Aristotlean virtue ethics, and by this I mean actually going to your local branch library or your nearest university library if possible and checking out books on these subjects. Don't waste your time trying to influence Michael when you could be sharpening your claws. He's not going to budge. He's been using the same tactics for the entire decade that I have known him, and his arguments and attitude are identical to what they were back then.

Seriously, these people are a waste of your time. I only stop by about yearly, if that, to blow off steam. Only this time I think I've managed to be more civil and intelligible, thanks to a nice drug that is normally used for treating Parkinson's Disease. Best of luck to you, and I'll see you another time.

[themuzicman]

When you say "you," did you mean the whiny jerks like yourself who think its okay to us the gov't to trample everyone else's rights? You loooovve your entitlements don't you, little supremacist, you?

Um... the military lives under a different code. In the military they give up many of their rights to serve. Perhaps you missed that in my last post.... and missed Bill Mutz agreeing with me.

Why don't you explain why you deserve to a have a government issue military ID card if you're married to a person of the opposite sex in the military (or retired military), and a gay person in the same situation does not.

Because that's what the military defines as necessary for the optimal function of the military. Again, you don't have a right to demand a card from the military.

Is that easy enough for you?

I'm sure you won't accept it, of course.

Stop using my government for your self serving entitlement programs, please.

Wow.. non-sequitor much?

[Hamster]

I just forced you to retreat and cut your losses. I didn't change your mind, but I probably damaged your morale.

Yes, you did damage my morale. I'm gay and neutral on the issue of marriage and now you've just provided homophobes (of which there are few on TW) with plenty of ammunition. Good luck with your agenda!

[Bill Mutz]

Hamster, in real life, I am highly charismatic in appearance and elocution. When I am angered, my voice drops from a tenor to a full bass, and my pupils look like black basketballs; therefore most people are cowed without me having to even raise my voice. It sounds deplorable, but I have not had anybody behave threateningly toward me or be terribly vocal about their disagreements with my political stances since my last growth spurt (backbiting is a different matter). Bullying accomplishes a lot more than we wish it did.

My methods are admittedly thuggish, but people do tend to be silenced if they believe that you can and will rip their heads off their shoulders. But, without Malcom X, Martin Luther King Jr.'s cause would have been lost. If the alternative to Ghandi had not been bloodshed, India would never have seen freedom. I am the stick. You can play the carrot if you want to.

[Pilgrim]

I'll make it simple for you, Pilgrim.

It's not that marriage is all that important to me. What sticks more in my mind is that you are driven to oppose me having that right by the fact that you are a repulsive bigot. I hate and condemn you for it, and I will make sure that you and others suffer and pay for your disgrace for the rest of your natural lives. I will see to it that you and others like you are subjected to every form of humiliation and degradation that I can heap upon you because I honestly want to see you suffer.

Is that too complicated for your small mind to understand?

Dude, I think you may be confusing me with some other poster. You can possibly be responding to my post. You have no idea how I feel about gay marriage since I haven't offered up an opinion on the matter yet. You have no place to make that accusation. Either you retract it, justify it, or I'll just have to call you a liar to your face.

The only comment I've made is about the government's involvement in marriage. Any marriage. I have not made a statement specifically about gay marriage in and of itself at all. So maybe you want to take the accusation of bigotry or prejudice and level it right back at yourself since you've clearly made a pre judgement about me that is not based on the evidence or my position.

As to suffering, well, that's not what I wish for you or anyone. I wish a solution that will respect each individuals person hood. I seek a solution that will honor your needs as well as mine.

[Pilgrim]

Oh, and an irony in this, Pilgrim, is that the anti-Bullying measures that YOUR god-awful Republicans keep blocking also protect youths who suffer from developmental disorders, and the crazy thing about it is that I was NEVER bullied extensively over my sexual orientation, real or perceived. Heck, I was treated with a lot more respect after I came out of the closet. Being honest with people tends to help them think more of your character.

Pilgrim, the reason that the struggle for gay people's rights appeals to me is simply that it is so iconic of what nearly drove me to take my own life when I was growing up. I was abused and ridiculed and isolated and punished because I could not possibly match up with other people's concept of "normalcy." I had Tourette Syndrome, traces of autism and such a nasty stammer that I was regularly pulled out of class to see a speech therapist. I may have brought a lot of my problems on myself, but it really doesn't help that some people think they have a right to show their butts to you and treat you like a leper just because you're a little peculiar or eccentric.

Maybe gay marriage isn't verbatim what you have in mind when you think of "Christian marriage," Pilgrim, but you are going to accept it whether you like it or not. It is being shoved down your throat, as we speak. You are not being given a choice in the matter. You will behave with respect and civility toward your fellow Man, and you will not be forgiven if you behave like a barbarian. One of these days, we'll be able to throw you in jail for some of the crap you say here with impunity now, and you will deserve it.

But again, the true irony of it all is that it's not even my sexual orientation that is at the root of me hating your guts! It's just another example of how I resent people telling me that I deserve to be treated horribly just because I don't have the same characteristics that mainstream thinking considers to be "the norm."

Chucklehead, I'm not a republican. I'm a liberal. Maybe you want to read things a little more carefully before you start spitting your rhetoric of hate everywhere. You're gonna end up pissing on people who might actually otherwise might have helped you.

[Pilgrim]

It is the interwoven fabric of problems that result from discrimination. For example, a divorced woman of a former serviceman, who retired after 20 years of service, retains her military dependent ID card, and can shop on the base/post, etc. At the same time, the current partner of a gay serviceman cannot so much as get an ID card. And this includes every type of relationship with gay couples, even ones that did not start until after the military person left the military.


Except it hasn't changed for the issues like the ones above, which again, are part of the larger whole.

But not for things like base/post privileges. So it still not equal. And there are many others, too. The bottom line is that it isn't equal until they are treated the same, and that would be much easier to by simply recognizing gay marriage than the gov't getting out of the marriage licensing business

What about all the little things that are hard to keep track of like the mate who is at home while a serviceperson is in Iraq?

For many conservative Christians, the main thing that bothers them about gay marriage is their objections about gay couples adopting, for example. They are not pleased when gays raise children.



Of course, you know this will never happen. So in the meantime, while the discrimination goes on for people other than you, then you appear to be magnanimous. But you are doing nothing to advocate for you position, and nothing to counter the people opposed to gay rights.

I'd respond to you but all you've done is constructed a huge strawman that you've flown into with a blazing red herring.

[Bill Mutz]

Oh, and the answer to the riddle is simple. Muzicman is defending a deontological moral position based on consequentialist arguments. By drawing non-religious people into arguing the issue from a consequentialist perspective, he prevents them from addressing him on grounds on which he is vulnerable.

However, when he actually is addressed in deontological terms, he responds with statements such as, "it's not the state's job to make sure that homosexuals feel they are being treated fairly. It's a cold, hard world." Unfortunately, you can no more argue with Muzicman on this score than you can argue with someone who says, "it's not my job to make sure that a paraplegiac can feed himself. It's a cold, hard world." You really can't argue with people who really don't care that they are being unpleasant toward others. You can no more force compassion or a sense of justice on people than you can force them to appreciate art.

However, we can feel disgust toward people who are so blind, and we should.

[Bill Mutz]

Chucklehead, I'm not a republican. I'm a liberal. Maybe you want to read things a little more carefully before you start spitting your rhetoric of hate everywhere. You're gonna end up pissing on people who might actually otherwise might have helped you.

Pilgrim, try to understand the point that I individually am not one of those sweet-tempered people that you would like to be beneficiaries of your no-doubt commendable liberal views. I am tough as nails, highly aggressive, hot-tempered and occasionally mean-spirited. I am manic-depressive, which essentially means that I stay in an agitated and anxious state of mind all the time, whether I am having a good day or a bad day. You know the feeling you get from being on a roller coaster? Imagine being stuck there permanently. If you are resilient, you can get used to it, even in time learn to deal with it productively.

If there is any defense for me, I no longer obsess over dumb forums or other social venues. They bring out the worst in me. I have found that art, poetry and narration bring out a kinder, gentler side of my personality, and I only visit venues such as this one to vent. I am a natural artist, and I am as trapped in this respect as I am trapped in my sexuality. Therefore, although it is indefensible that I can be nasty and horrible toward people on venues such as this one, I have chosen to spend more of my time creating beautiful things for those who have it in them to appreciate them.

Also, since my outburst toward you, I have behaved with a higher level of respect than I formerly have toward Michael, which is considerably strange for me. I credit this partially to a drug that I have been taking that is typically used for treating Parkinson's Disease. I have been doing well on it: I don't get as caught up in my blazes of temper, but instead I find myself a lot more able to step back and get a sense of perspective. I could do this anyway after a little while, but it was always too late to do much damage control. I hope that you notice that my behavior has been more rational, in spite of occasions here where I have slipped into old habits.

Really, the only selfish benefit that I have consistently found in being with a steady partner is that it stops my smoking. I don't understand why, but it is pretty consistent. But, on the subject of gay marriage, consider this: you might consider homosexuality to be a bad thing, but preventing a gay man from getting married is like sawing off a healthy leg and leaving the one that has gangrene in it. Constancy and fidelity are a good thing, no matter what your sexuality is, no matter what your sins are. It instills in one's mind that there is no such thing as "me." It forces us to accept compromise and sacrifice and understand the point that sometimes we have to squelch our own needs and discomforts for the sake of a household. If it's a bad thing to encourage gay men to see this, I am a leprachaun.

Good day.

Oh, and a movie recommendation. Have you watched Love! Valour! Compassion! yet? It's the bee's knees.

[Pilgrim]

Bill, your mental health issues are a reason, not an excuse for your poor behavior. I understand you have issues and I feel for you on that regard. I don't, however, have to give you a pass on bad behavior because of it. Man up and take responsibility for yourself rather than rationalizing your spite away. You'll be better off for it. Perhaps a simple "my bad, I'm sorry" rather than a "oh, it's my crazy talking so deal with it" would be a good start.