Gay Marriage

[Bill Mutz]

Yeah, that'll convince me...

It's not intended to. It's intended to terrorize you and eventually wear you down. It might not work on you, but it'll work on your buddies!

[TimZim]

There is no laws against gay going and taking vows together before a priest. None.

Thus, there is no violation of anyone's rights.

And you would be wrong.

More than likely it is a purposeful ignorance, which is no different than being the person preventing them, personally, from what you feel entitled to do without similar constraints.

[themuzicman]

And you would be wrong.

Wrong about what? Where in the US is there a law against gays taking vows together? Put your money where your mouth is.

More than likely it is a purposeful ignorance, which is no different than being the person preventing them, personally, from what you feel entitled to do without similar constraints.

Ah.. so this was just a personal attack, and not a real argument. My bad.

[themuzicman]

It's not intended to. It's intended to terrorize you and eventually wear you down. It might not work on you, but it'll work on your buddies!

Do you really want to become Westboro Baptist Church?

[TimZim]

Wrong about what?

Having the same protections of their rights that you (might, if your str8) have. Duh.
Being willfully ignorant doesn't make any less evil, wrong, and pathetic.

Where in the US is there a law against gays taking vows together?

That, of course, is nobody's definition of marriage, so what is your pathetic point?

Put your money where your mouth is.

put yours there, smart boy. Why don't you and your boyfriend go to the court house and get that annoying clerk paid with our tax dollars to find you a justice of the peace and a marriage license.

Ah.. so this was just a personal attack, and not a real argument. My bad.

Its both. Especially when you start with such an absurd claim.

[themuzicman]

Having the same protections of their rights that you (might, if your str8) have. Duh.
Being willfully ignorant doesn't make any less evil, wrong, and pathetic.

The only "right" with respect to marriage is the right to take vows together. The rest is legal machinations.

That, of course, is nobody's definition of marriage, so what is your pathetic point? put yours there, smart boy. Why don't you and your boyfriend go to the court house and get that annoying clerk paid with our tax dollars to find you a justice of the peace and a marriage license.

Gee, you got pwn3d with a real argument, and you've been reduced to name calling. How quaint.

Its both. Especially when you start with such an absurd claim.

The claim that gays can go take vows together? As far as I can see, your name calling hasn't refuted that fact.

[Hamster]

No, Hamster, I do not. If you think that you're going to be allowed to blockade the advancement of society forever, barbarian, you've got another thing coming. You will be swept out of the way by whatever brute force is necessary. I am ruthless and mean, and I don't think very highly of you. You should realize that, or you are going to find yourself feeling very disappointed.

Whatever you say, Internet Rainbow Warrior. Have a great time trying to fight injustice by being more inequitable than the people you're criticizing. I'm sure that will be very productive and increase justice and understanding for all.

[TimZim]

The only "right" with respect to marriage is the right to take vows together. The rest is legal machinations.

They do not have anywhere near the same number legal protections as straight people have, which is what I said at the outset. And, unless you cannot read, one small example, is the privileges that go with a dependent military ID card.

Gee, you got pwn3d with a real argument, and you've been reduced to name calling. How quaint.

No its that kind of two line dismissal of a moron who hates American principles that deserves to be torched with a flame thrower, which is the weapon of choice in this discussion.

The claim that gays can go take vows together? As far as I can see, your name calling hasn't refuted that fact.

Six-year-olds can take vows together, idiot. That isn't anyone's definition of marriage.

Just get out of the way, and stop pretending you care one whit if your gov't gives you stuff it doesn't give to others.

You're acting like a typical spoiled brat, who just cannot stand it when his little brother gets the same size candy bar as he does.

[themuzicman]

They do not have anywhere near the same number legal protections as straight people have, which is what I said at the outset. And, unless you cannot read, one small example, is the privileges that go with a dependent military ID card.

Married people get benefits and privileges because they provide benefits to the government and society at large. I don't think there is anything married people get that gays cannot engage with other legal instruments.

No its that kind of two line dismissal of a moron who hates American principles that deserves to be torched with a flame thrower, which is the weapon of choice in this discussion.

More name calling. What a shock.

Six-year-olds can take vows together, idiot. That isn't anyone's definition of marriage.

Actually, no they can't. Six year olds cannot consent to anything.

However, the nature of the vow is what makes marriage marriage, and a gay union what it is, as well.

Just get out of the way, and stop pretending you care one whit if your gov't gives you stuff it doesn't give to others.

Well, in order to receive benefits and privileges, you gotta quality. People who own house and have mortgages get a deduction for mortgage interest. Those who rent don't.

Gay unions don't qualify because they don't provide the benefits that married people do.

You're acting like a typical spoiled brat, who just cannot stand it when his little brother gets the same size candy bar as he does.

LOL... More name calling.

[Bill Mutz]

Do you really want to become Westboro Baptist Church?

Hmm, nope. I've actually matured enough that I've developed a liking toward Christians in general, and I am especially fond of Presbyterians. I went to see a friend have her daughter baptized at her Pentacostal church, and I really surprised myself a lot. There was a little girl sitting next to me, and a few times I helped her with finding the right page in her Bible so she could follow along. Anything to support literacy!

Muz, you know as well as I do that marriage doesn't have a whole lot to do with this debate. You've already pointed it out, just in different language. Gay marriage will be a political victory for the gay people more than anything else. The fact is that you are a Bible believing Christian, and you believe that homosexuality is a sin. Your opposition to gay rights is not an indication that you lack morality or intelligence. Far from it. It is only a product of you taking your beliefs seriously and following them to the letter. Asking you to do otherwise would be to ask you to have less commitment to being a Christian.

I sympathize with you, Muz, and I recognize that you are an intelligent and very moral man. However, we are at war, and there is no way around war being an ugly thing. To try to spray-paint it as something other than ugly and wicked would only serve to cheapen that which is legitimately beautiful. The most ethical way to go about this culture war is to be done with it as brutally and efficiently as possible. Anybody on my side who has any compassion at all should realize that the only decent means of dealing with your people is to attack you with such unchecked brutality that you are forced to cut your losses and retreat.

I would be wasting typeface if I asked you to be less of what you consider to be a Christian. However, your people are going to take a serious pounding over the next few years. The Episcopals have turned on you. The Lutherans have turned. The Presbyterians are turning. The day of the Bible is dimming.

[Bill Mutz]

Whatever you say, Internet Rainbow Warrior. Have a great time trying to fight injustice by being more inequitable than the people you're criticizing. I'm sure that will be very productive and increase justice and understanding for all.

I certainly shall. I just forced you to retreat and cut your losses. I didn't change your mind, but I probably damaged your morale. That was my intent. If I thought I had a chance of persuading you, I would be nice to you. Otherwise, my options are limited to making it more difficult for you to endure being on the wrong side of the argument. It won't change your mind, but it will make you more shy about voicing your opinions on the issue.

[TimZim]

Married people get benefits and privileges because they provide benefits to the government and society at large. I don't think there is anything married people get that gays cannot engage with other legal instruments.

Except you are still wrong. And I gave you one example, of military dependent ID cards (and the privileges that go with them), and you glossed over it as if wasn't there.

Face it, you want to pretend it is all okay, while being an anti-American, bigoted punk.

More name calling. What a shock.

More willful (read of fake) ignorance.

Actually, no they can't. Six year olds cannot consent to anything.

Of course they can, idiot. Do you know any six-year-olds?

However, the nature of the vow is what makes marriage marriage, and a gay union what it is, as well.

That is utter nonsense. What two people might have vowed in privacy has absolutely nothing to do with how they might be treated differently in public, based on a publicly recognized, and in this case a legally recognized, process.

Gay unions don't qualify because they don't provide the benefits that married people do.

And of course we have all read your exhaustive (zero line) list of the benefits in you first two-line post.

[themuzicman]

Hmm, nope. I've actually matured enough that I've developed a liking toward Christians in general, and I am especially fond of Presbyterians. I went to see a friend have her daughter baptized at her Pentacostal church, and I really surprised myself a lot. There was a little girl sitting next to me, and a few times I helped her with finding the right page in her Bible so she could follow along. Anything to support literacy!

So, spitting on people and terrorizing them is a sign of maturity?

Muz, you know as well as I do that marriage doesn't have a whole lot to do with this debate.

If only the gay lobby would admit this.

You've already pointed it out, just in different language. Gay marriage will be a political victory for the gay people more than anything else.

Probably a fairly hallow one.

The fact is that you are a Bible believing Christian, and you believe that homosexuality is a sin.

Not exactly. Certainly homosexual acts are, but being a homosexual is just a condition.

Your opposition to gay rights is not an indication that you lack morality or intelligence. Far from it. It is only a product of you taking your beliefs seriously and following them to the letter. Asking you to do otherwise would be to ask you to have less commitment to being a Christian.

I don't recall opposing gay rights.

I sympathize with you, Muz, and I recognize that you are an intelligent and very moral man. However, we are at war, and there is no way around war being an ugly thing.

Really? War? Like you're shooting people and everything? Given that we have real soldiers fighting real wars around the world, this seems to cheapen their efforts.

All that's going on is the gay folks are trying to force the government to give them benefits that they want. Nothing more.

To try to spray-paint it as something other than ugly and wicked would only serve to cheapen that which is legitimately beautiful.

Kinda like cheapening marriage?

The most ethical way to go about this culture war is to be done with it as brutally and efficiently as possible. Anybody on my side who has any compassion at all should realize that the only decent means of dealing with your people is to attack you with such unchecked brutality that you are forced to cut your losses and retreat.

SO, you are becoming Westboto Baptist Church.. why not just admit it?

I would be wasting typeface if I asked you to be less of what you consider to be a Christian. However, your people are going to take a serious pounding over the next few years. The Episcopals have turned on you. The Lutherans have turned. The Presbyterians are turning. The day of the Bible is dimming.

Heh... Again?

[themuzicman]

Except you are still wrong. And I gave you one example, of military dependent ID cards (and the privileges that go with them), and you glossed over it as if wasn't there.

When you join the military, you give up many rights. Including that one. That's just life.

Face it, you want to pretend it is all okay, while being an anti-American, bigoted punk.

Wow.. more name calling. What a shock.

More willful (read of fake) ignorance.

More name calling. You do realize that name calling isn't a good substitute for a substantive response, right?

Of course they can, idiot. Do you know any six-year-olds?

Several. Do you have any idea who can consent and who cannot?

That is utter nonsense. What two people might have vowed in privacy has absolutely nothing to do with how they might be treated differently in public, based on a publicly recognized, and in this case a legally recognized, process.

Very good. Now all you need to realize is that you don't have a right to benefits and privileges that you don't qualify for.

And of course we have all read your exhaustive (zero line) list of the benefits in you first two-line post.

Doesn't really matter what they are. Gay unions don't qualify.

[Bill Mutz]

Tim, I have had a lot more experience with Michael than you have, and what I would relate to you based on that experience is that he is a highly intelligent man, at least in the sense of being cagey. He can talk circles around you all day long, and there will be nothing whatsoever that you can do about it. He is very good at what he does, and he is very strong in his resolve.

What I suggest is that you keep your temper firmly in check, and keep your sense of humor. Furthermore, try to respect him for what he is worth: this will help you with both keeping your temper under control and maintaining your sense of humor.