Give me your arguments please

[Dan Zebiri]

First off banasha, one never finds Christians saying or affirming that 'islam means to obey the law of moses...'! Its oxymoronic to say that.

So whatever you are trying to say here is a red herring and nothing else..a distraction since you have nothing else sensible or intelligent to say in response to the relevant points that are raised.

What is Islam? if it is obeying God, then I think Christ as a central role in it. If it is a purely Arabian religion that Muhammad made up, i dont think Christ has much to do with it.

Since some people say Islam means obeying the god of Moses, are you calling the Law of Moses, or the teaching of Jesus and Paul a "Doctrine of demons" ?

[OneSizeFit]

I realized that after I had posted it. I take it back. Besides, I have just realized that the two nature Christ of Nestorius is not all that objectionable to me. However, it is also my understanding that the Nestorian Church did not set a very good example for Muhammad to follow while it engaged in the oppression of those who disagreed with its position. Hence, I place a significant amount of the blame for Islam's oppressive nature upon that example.

The two nature view of Christ is actually Scripturally sound. And I agree the harsh nature of Christianity at the time was reflected into Muhammad's theology. But what is cool about the Quran, is that it gives us a peek into both the Christianity and Judaism of 700AD of the Middle East, anyhow, cheers.

[barnasha]

First off banasha, one never finds Christians saying or affirming that 'islam means to obey the law of moses...'! Its oxymoronic to say that.

since that is how it is defined by the muslims, if anyone was even halfway serious about discussing the topic, they should acknowledge that fact.

you can disagree with their religion but you can't disagree with how they defined the term.

if we want to talk about "what people other than muslims define islam is", i think that is a totally different discussion.

what next, shall we look to atheists to study christianity?

So whatever you are trying to say here is a red herring and nothing else..a distraction since you have nothing else sensible or intelligent to say in response to the relevant points that are raised.

I may have missed something and not responded, feel free to ask again instead of trying to find something to accuse me with..

[moreta]

OK. I'm not getting into the discussion here, but I want to throw out a couple of amens to onesizefit and barnasha. I agree with very little, if any, of what you say, but after reading through these many posts on various threads, I find that the two of you are the least prone to histronics on this particular forum. I appreciate your lack of drama.

[CuriousBob]

The two nature view of Christ is actually Scripturally sound. And I agree the harsh nature of Christianity at the time was reflected into Muhammad's theology. But what is cool about the Quran, is that it gives us a peek into both the Christianity and Judaism of 700AD of the Middle East, anyhow, cheers.

I will give credit to the Quran for that much but not much more as it doesn't seem to offer any amount of material that will appease my wishful thinking side about its evidently miserable agenda for the entire human race.

[CuriousBob]

I will give credit to the Quran for that much but not much more as it doesn't seem to offer any amount of material that will appease my wishful thinking side about its evidently miserable agenda for the entire human race.

OK. I'm not getting into the discussion here, but I want to throw out a couple of amens to onesizefit and barnasha. I agree with very little, if any, of what you say, but after reading through these many posts on various threads, I find that the two of you are the least prone to histronics on this particular forum. I appreciate your lack of drama.

But don't histronics come naturally to anyone who is upset about the injustices and outrageous lunacies that are so obvious and significant in the texts that settle all disputes among Muslims and in the laws that govern every genuine Islamic state? If so, then why does it seem as if you are knocking those of us who are constantly and overwhelmingly histronic in our protests against the Islamic agenda? Am I missing something here? Do I lack an understanding of your use of the term "histronics"? Please tell me I am.

[CuriousBob]

OK. I'm not getting into the discussion here, but I want to throw out a couple of amens to onesizefit and barnasha. I agree with very little, if any, of what you say, but after reading through these many posts on various threads, I find that the two of you are the least prone to histronics on this particular forum. I appreciate your lack of drama.

On the other hand, maybe I am not engaged in histronics after all since my emotional reaction to Islam's injustices is not exaggerated. In that case I see no reason why you should feel obligate to reply to my last post and, yes it is a good thing that Barnasha is remaining quite calm, despite all the personal attacks that are coming from others, not to mention the most vicious emotionally laden ones that have come from my side of Islam's Jihad. This is unusual to me because he seems to be the only Muslim that I have debated with that has managed to do that. He might take that as a compliment because that is about the only compliment that my tamer side is willing give him, at this point. Muslims rarely, if ever, give me a good reason for saying anything admirable about them or their most outrageously blasphemous example of the Holy One''s prophets.

[barnasha]

i am all for calling out injustices no matter who does them... are you just as critical of injustices done in the name of christianity as you are for those done in the name of islam? and if something good is done in the name of islam or christianity? if so, you will appear to have a sensible moral standard. if not, you risk appearing more like a partisan who we can't really trust to be a dispassionate analyst

[Dan Zebiri]

Why should anyone take 'how the muslims define christianity' seriously?

The quran tries to revise the key fundamentals of the Christian gospel like the personhood and identity of Jesus Christ, His mission on earth - that he allegedly 'never died on the Cross' and other key, central facts of Christianity like that!

This kind of revisionism, islam tries to do by indulging in unjustified, after-the-facts re-writing of the actual historical facts, more than 800 years AFTER the event of Jesus Christ. Its just like a bald and illogical re-writing the facts about Christopher Columbus, 300 years later, like that he encountered Alaska rather than the other coast of America, when the real historians know much better!

The quran also tries to re-write the history of Jesus Christ illogically and senselessly, more than 700 years LATER after he had come and gone. Sacralizing its version in the name of being the so-called 'revelation from Allah'.

I would much rather trust the much earlier New Testament documents that have captured the life, times and ministry of Jesus Christ with far better historical and corroborating evidence that are much more reliable, than in the words & the empty claims of the quran regarding Jesus.

[CuriousBob]

i am all for calling out injustices no matter who does them

Really? What proof have you given us that this is true?

are you just as critical of injustices done in the name of christianity as you are for those done in the name of islam?

Given what everyone here knows of your complete lack of sensibilities in discussions of this sort, I would be surprised if anyone here, other than you and your typical fellow-Muhammadans, actually believed that this type of question is not merely a reflection of a gross ignorance or deliberate overlooking of the example that settles all all disputes among Christians in stark contrast to the example that settles all disputes among Muhammadans.

[barnasha]

Really? What proof have you given us that this is true?

What proof do you have that it isn't?

Given what everyone here knows of your complete lack of sensibilities in discussions of this sort, I would be surprised if anyone here, other than you and your typical fellow-Muhammadans, actually believed that this type of question is not merely a reflection of a gross ignorance or deliberate overlooking of the example that settles all all disputes among Christians in stark contrast to the example that settles all disputes among Muhammadans.

I disagree with your characterization. Why not focus on the original topics rather than focus on my character?

[CuriousBob]

What proof do you have that it isn't?

I know better than to expect, from you or any one of your typical Muhammadan brothers or sisters, a more original answer than this typically childish answer that you have posted. I asked you first (i.e., for proof that it is) and because I asked you first (i.e., for proof that it is), I am under no obligation to answer you when you ask me (i.e., for proof that it isn't), at the very least, until you have answered my question. So far, you have not answer my question. Nay, rather you have merely repeated it by firing it back at me. That is what a typical child and liar would do.

It seems the more you and the typical Muhammadan attempts to answer sensible and simple questions that put you on the spot, the more you speak like emotionally disturbed or immature children.

The childish nature of Islam's typical defenders of its lunacy against constructive criticism only serves to reinforce what my research has established with regards to the most authentic of all Islamic mentalities. It only serves to confirm the fact that, more than anything to the contrary, Islam clearly inspires its adherents to resort to childish reasoning when attempting to answer the critics of their most ridiculous claims; the critics of the lunacy that rules their lives; or the critics of their most blatantly blasphemous and outrageously pathetic example of a sane, holy, and peaceful, or just character.

Islam and its adherents are their own worst enemies because they are so obviously against themselves and in so many unavoidable ways. I must say, of all the religious people I have debated with in the past, Muslims hold the world record in being the easiest to refute by logical arguments and this is simply because they are most shamelessly, obliviously, and obviously unrealistic and unjust in their approach to reasonable thinking. But, for the longest time, I thought that the Jehovah's Witnesses held the world record for being the easiest of all cult members to refute.

Why not focus on the original topics rather than focus on my character

It just might be because your characteristically childish responses to Islam's critics is all that you have made it possible for me to take notice of whenever you and your typical fellow Muhammadans respond to constructive criticisms of and revealing questions about that self-flaunting, blasphemous, and arrogant lunacy which both you and they consider most sacred.

Instead of focusing on any of the topics that obligate you to answer the critics of your religious/political points of view you habitually and continually prefer to focus on the characters of those same critics.

In that light, why, all of a sudden, are you treating me as if I am in the wrong for doing precisely what you do all the time, despite the fact that I may be much more justified in so doing than you could ever be?

Is it because you are a hypocrite or is it because you simply don't know any better than the child that you argue like?

[Dan Zebiri]

barnasha, Why should anyone take 'how the muslims define christianity' seriously?

The quran tries to revise the key fundamentals of the Christian gospel like the personhood and identity of Jesus Christ, His mission on earth - that he allegedly 'never died on the Cross' and other key, central facts of Christianity like that!

This kind of revisionism, islam tries to do by indulging in unjustified, after-the-facts re-writing of the actual historical facts, more than 800 years AFTER the event of Jesus Christ. Its just like a bald and illogical re-writing the facts about Christopher Columbus, 300 years later, like that he encountered Alaska rather than the other coast of America, when the real historians know much better!

The quran also tries to re-write the history of Jesus Christ illogically and senselessly, more than 700 years LATER after he had come and gone. Sacralizing its version in the name of being the so-called 'revelation from Allah'.

I would much rather trust the much earlier New Testament documents that have captured the life, times and ministry of Jesus Christ with far better historical and corroborating evidence that are much more reliable, than in the words & the empty claims of the quran regarding Jesus.

[moreta]

barnasha, Why should anyone take 'how the muslims define christianity' seriously?

Because how they define Christianity is going to play a large part in how they view and respond to Christianity. And regardless of what you, or anyone else may wish, neither Islam nor Christianity dwell in a vacuum. We have to deal with each other's presence in the world, and how we percieve each other, and all those with whom we live and work, will have a great impact on what happens between us. Knowing how we as a people, a faith, a nation, ans even as individuals are percieved by others will give us insight into why those others are responding to us the way they are, and we can adjust our own response accordingly, including correcting any misperceptions which may avert an avoidable conflict.