Arguments plz

[Sparko]

You betcha!



But God gave us a brain for that purpose, OC. And if the spirit has the power to think, why didn't God just leave us with that? It just amazes me how convoluted everything has to be to accommodate Smith's teachings.

The big problem is that the "intelligences" don't even have spirits!

[OtherCheek]

But you have been told about my question, otherwise you wouldn't even know about "intelligences" would you?

You seem to like to pontificate on things you weren't "told" about, but when someone asks you a question that calls into question your pontification, you revert to "we weren't told about that" as an excuse.

Possibly. I probably shouldn't pontificate with you, however. I'll try to be less forthcoming of my own thoughts in the future where you are concerned.

Another question, I thought that God CHOSE which intelligences to give spirits and bodies to, not the intelligence.

Possibly, possibly not.

And apparently because there have been such intelligences as Satan, and Hitler and others that definitely do NOT choose God, the intelligence's "choice" makes no difference to God.

Satan is in hell. His choice obviously made a difference to both God and himself. Hitler will be judged along with Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and others. But I don't believe God judges a person for their choices UNTIL after the choices have been made. Do you have a contrary opinion?

[OtherCheek]

The big problem is that the "intelligences" don't even have spirits!

So, do you believe Jesus could think without a physical body? Can God the Father think?

Think about it.

[Sparko]

Satan is in hell. His choice obviously made a difference to both God and himself. Hitler will be judged along with Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and others. But I don't believe God judges a person for their choices UNTIL after the choices have been made. Do you have a contrary opinion?

No. but apparently you do and forgot. you claimed that the intelligences made choices before being given spirits and bodies. Now you say that their choices were not made until after they had spirits or bodies.

oops.

[Sparko]

So, do you believe Jesus could think without a physical body? Can God the Father think?

Think about it.

they weren't/aren't spiritless intelligences. God is spirit.

[Cow Poke]

Do you believe Jesus had the power to think while his body was in the tomb? I believe he did.

I never thought about it, OC. Jesus was dead. You think dead people think?

[One Bad Pig]

I believe there is great significance. But LDS scriptures are not a scientific expose on the existence of life, just as Genesis is not a scientific expose on the details of the creation.

Okay, you believe there is great significance. I'm not asking for scientific details; I'm asking you what the great significant difference (or differences) is between the 'intelligence' and the 'spirit body'.

What use is what?

What use is the putative ability to choose if the choices don't matter?

It made no sense to me.

It was a hypothetical. Next time, please ask for clarification rather than chopping my words down to something you can refute.

In LDS theology, you and I made choices in our pre-mortal state which led us to this point in our existence--on earth with a physical body. According to LDS theology, 1/3 of the hosts of heaven made a choice in the pre-mortal state that permanently landed them in a condition where they will never obtain a physical body.

Okay, that I didn't recall. Thanks. Those choices, however, would still be made while in 'spirit bodies', yes?

LDS believe there are advantages to having a physical body as opposed to not having one. Similarly, I trust God's Plan, that there are great advantages to having a spirit body, as opposed to not having one.

ok. But the Holy Spirit became God in LDS belief without a physical body, right?

[OtherCheek]

ok. But the Holy Spirit became God in LDS belief without a physical body, right?

Sure.

Apostle David A. Bednar puts it this way:
One of the primary purposes of mortality is to learn—to gain knowledge and intelligence. Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 states, “The glory of God is intelligence.” You might think intelligence means being gifted in academic work, but intelligence also means applying the knowledge we obtain for righteous purposes.
http://www.lds.org/liahona/2007/10/t...ence+obedience
It does not make an individual more intelligent just because they have a physical body.

You are welcome to read the Abraham 3 if you like. The context of my answers might become more clear if you did.

[OtherCheek]

I never thought about it, OC. Jesus was dead. You think dead people think?

I think the spirit does not die, but lives on. I think Jesus' spirit lived on, though his physical body was entombed.

[OtherCheek]

they weren't/aren't spiritless intelligences. God is spirit.

So, from your perspective, God does not need a physical body in order to think.

Well, I don't think Jesus-the Son of God, needed a physical body to think.
And LDS believe there is a spirit in each man that can think as well. In fact, I believe it is the spirit that animates the tabernacle of clay (physical body), not the other way around.

[OtherCheek]

No. but apparently you do and forgot. you claimed that the intelligences made choices before being given spirits and bodies. Now you say that their choices were not made until after they had spirits or bodies.

,
No, I never said choices were not made until after they had spirits or bodies. I would only say that Hitler likely didn't order the death of Jews until after he had a physical body. That does not mean that the individual that became Hitler never made ANY choices before obtaining a body. Do you have evidence that Hitler ordered the death of Jews before he was born?

[Bill the Cat]

I think that element and intelligence are that which fills empty space. Element is that which is acted upon and intelligence is that which acts.

So, the intelligence that eventually became the Father... why did he get to become god first? Was there someone or something else that made the first decision to become a spirit body? And if so, why could another not decide to become a spirit body without someone else organizing them?

[Sparko]

So, from your perspective, God does not need a physical body in order to think.

Well, I don't think Jesus-the Son of God, needed a physical body to think.
And LDS believe there is a spirit in each man that can think as well. In fact, I believe it is the spirit that animates the tabernacle of clay (physical body), not the other way around.

You keep conveniently skipping the part where "intelligences" don't even have spirit bodies, OC. Why is that?

[OtherCheek]

You keep conveniently skipping the part where "intelligences" don't even have spirit bodies, OC. Why is that?

It seems apparent to me that individuals have been making choices all along, in whatever state they may have been in--and even before being organized into spirits.

Read D&C 93 if you are really interested in pursuing this topic. It will help you to understand the principle of agency and choice.

You mentioned Hitler a few posts ago. Is it Christian doctrine that God is ultimately responsible for creating the psyche of individuals like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others? Did God create the psyche of satan?

[Sparko]

It seems apparent to me that individuals have been making choices all along, in whatever state they may have been in.

Read D&C 93 if you are really interested in pursuing this topic. It will help you to understand the principle of agency and choice.

You mentioned Hitler a few posts ago. Is it Christian doctrine that God is ultimately responsible for creating the psyche of people like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others?

God created everyone and he has complete foreknowledge of everything that everyone will do. What we do is our choice, but God knew we would make every one of them before we were created.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

My point to YOU though was that you said it was important that the intelligences made good choices before being given spirit bodies. Yet God still chose to incarnate intelligences that would hate him and do extreme evil, like Satan. Are you saying that God in the LDS theology does NOT know the future and what we will do?