Arguments plz

[OtherCheek]

God created everyone and he has complete foreknowledge of everything that everyone will do. What we do is our choice, but God knew we would make every one of them before we were created.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Therefore, God created all that Hitler is, including his psyche. Here's the difference, Sparko. You believe God made a plan, and then created humanity to fit it and accommodate it. You believe God created man for the purpose of suiting His plan. Mormonism teaches that God created His plan to fit and accommodate humanity which already existed and whom God already knew. I believe God created a plan for the purpose of suiting humanity.

For you, God created Hitler because God's plan called for evil to be well represented. For me, evil was already represented in the spirits that were, and God created his plan to accommodate their evil.

My point to YOU though was that you said it was important that the intelligences made good choices before being given spirit bodies. Yet God still chose to incarnate intelligences that would hate him and do extreme evil, like Satan. Are you saying that God in the LDS theology does NOT know the future and what we will do?

Yes, they became incarnate but they were not among the noble and great ones, and were not made rulers among God's people. Rather they were true to who they were --(evil), and God prepared a plan to accommodate them.

Abraham 3:22-23
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

[Sparko]

You believe God created man for the purpose of suiting His plan. Mormonism teaches that God created His plan to fit and accommodate humanity which already existed and whom God already knew. I believe God created a plan for the purpose of suiting humanity.

This is true. We are part of God's plan. He is OUR God, we are not his. We serve HIM. And because he loves us, he created us to be happy serving him. God isn't our servant. He is our LORD.

That is one of the problems of the LDS church. It elevates men into Gods and lowers God into a mere super-man.

So yes, you do believe God serves you. I believe I should serve God.

Our purpose is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.


Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

[OtherCheek]

This is true. We are part of God's plan. He is OUR God, we are not his. We serve HIM. And because he loves us, he created us to be happy serving him. God isn't our servant. He is our LORD.

That is one of the problems of the LDS church. It elevates men into Gods and lowers God into a mere super-man.

The problem is that for you, elevating man must necessarily mean lowering God. But that is not the LDS view at all.

Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

From your perspective, this makes God the author and designer of evil. Talk about lowering God.

You almost seem to be advocating a "Man was created for the Sabbath" type of argument.

[One Bad Pig]

Sure.

Apostle David A. Bednar puts it this way:
One of the primary purposes of mortality is to learn—to gain knowledge and intelligence. Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 states, “The glory of God is intelligence.” You might think intelligence means being gifted in academic work, but intelligence also means applying the knowledge we obtain for righteous purposes.
http://www.lds.org/liahona/2007/10/t...ence+obedience
It does not make an individual more intelligent just because they have a physical body.

Well, thanks for answering a question I didn't ask. If I recall correctly, those who do not attain physical bodies are angels, and will be servants to those who attain the upper level(s) of the heavenly kingdom. Yet the Holy Spirit, who also did not attain a physical body (as you affirm), will not be anyone's servant, right? How is the Holy Spirit different?

You are welcome to read the Abraham 3 if you like. The context of my answers might become more clear if you did.

In a way it did, because it shows intelligences making choices. On the other hand, it made even less clear any putative distinction between spirits and intelligences.

Then I read D&C 93, and things became even less clear. Intelligence is light and truth, which exist from the beginning with God, and forsake "that evil one". It looks like, from that passage, that intelligence has no volition to do anything.

[OtherCheek]

Well, thanks for answering a question I didn't ask. If I recall correctly, those who do not attain physical bodies are angels, and will be servants to those who attain the upper level(s) of the heavenly kingdom.

Not exactly. Angels may be spirit beings, and they may also be resurrected beings.

Yet the Holy Spirit, who also did not attain a physical body (as you affirm), will not be anyone's servant, right? How is the Holy Spirit different?

As you recall, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. In a sense, Jesus acted as servant in the deeds he performed for mankind. But, He is also the Master. Not much is told us about the Holy Ghost except that he is the 3rd member of the Godhead, and has a role to testify of God the Father and Jesus Christ. At present, He is a personage of spirit for a divine purpose and some day that purpose will be fulfilled and he too will obtain his body. The Holy Ghost was chosen by the Father, just as Jesus Christ was chosen to carry out the Father's Plan of Happiness.

In a way it did, because it shows intelligences making choices. On the other hand, it made even less clear any putative distinction between spirits and intelligences.

I'm afraid your question will not be fully satisfied in that matter until more is revealed.

Then I read D&C 93, and things became even less clear. Intelligence is light and truth, which exist from the beginning with God, and forsake "that evil one". It looks like, from that passage, that intelligence has no volition to do anything.

We have always had volition to be obedient and increase in intelligence, or to not be obedient and decrease in intelligence.


2 Nephi 28:30

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. (BoM)

[One Bad Pig]

Not exactly. Angels may be spirit beings, and they may also be resurrected beings.

But they are still relegated to the role of servants, yes?

As you recall, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. In a sense, Jesus acted as servant in the deeds he performed for mankind.

That was voluntary, not because He was restricted to being a servant.

At present, He is a personage of spirit for a divine purpose and some day that purpose will be fulfilled and he too will obtain his body. The Holy Ghost was chosen by the Father, just as Jesus Christ was chosen to carry out the Father's Plan of Happiness.

Interesting.

I'm afraid your question will not be fully satisfied in that matter until more is revealed.

Okay.

We have always had volition to be obedient and increase in intelligence, or to not be obedient and decrease in intelligence.

That makes no sense. Intelligence is linked to genetics, not obedience, and is pretty much fixed (though it can be lowered by brain trauma).

2 Nephi 28:30

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. (BoM)

That appears to apply to children of men, which would be restricted to those who acquire physical bodies. That in no way negates what D&C 93 says about intelligences.

[OtherCheek]

But they are still relegated to the role of servants, yes?

"Relegated?" From an LDS perspective, we don't view it as a demeaning thing to be a servant of God.

That makes no sense. Intelligence is linked to genetics, not obedience, and is pretty much fixed (though it can be lowered by brain trauma).

From an LDS scriptural perspective, the word "intelligence" means much more than the definition that Webster provides.

That appears to apply to children of men, which would be restricted to those who acquire physical bodies. That in no way negates what D&C 93 says about intelligences.

From an LDS perspective, the principle of learning and acquiring knowledge and growing in understanding is a principle that has always applied to us, even before taking upon bodies.

D&C 138:55-56 explains this from a scriptural standpoint.

[One Bad Pig]

"Relegated?" From an LDS perspective, we don't view it as a demeaning thing to be a servant of God.

From an LDS perspective, you view them as servants of those who are more worthy (IOW those who have fulfilled their various ordinances in the flesh) - see D&C 132:15-17.

From an LDS scriptural perspective, the word "intelligence" means much more than the definition that Webster provides.

I'm not at all surprised by that.

From an LDS perspective, the principle of learning and acquiring knowledge and growing in understanding is a principle that has always applied to us, even before taking upon bodies.

D&C 138:55-56 explains this from a scriptural standpoint.

D&C 138:55-56 explicitly applies to the spirit world, not their pre-spiritual state.

[OtherCheek]

From an LDS perspective, you view them as servants of those who are more worthy (IOW those who have fulfilled their various ordinances in the flesh) - see D&C 132:15-17.

These people didn't want to accept the responsibility of eternal parenthood. They are "angels of God forever and ever." (See verse 17) Why do you view that with such contempt? Do you really think it is demeaning to be an angel of God from your perspective?

I'm not at all surprised by that.

So why are you asking questions here? Do you actually want to know what we believe and know the LDS perspective, or were you just feeling lonely and wanted someone to argue with for the sake of argument and entertainment?

D&C 138:55-56 explicitly applies to the spirit world, not their pre-spiritual state.

That does not matter. We have always been learning and progressing and proving ourselves. See again Abraham 3:22-23

[One Bad Pig]

These people didn't want to accept the responsibility of eternal parenthood. They are "angels of God forever and ever." (See verse 17) Why do you view that with such contempt? Do you really think it is demeaning to be an angel of God from your perspective?

From my perspective? No. It's the LDS who denigrate angels as disobedient.

So why are you asking questions here? Do you actually want to know what we believe and know the LDS perspective, or were you just feeling lonely and wanted someone to argue with for the sake of argument and entertainment?

I'm asking questions here because I'm trying to learn your beliefs. It's sometimes difficult, though, because you have so many alternate definitions for words that it sometimes seems like we're typing in different languages.

That does not matter. We have always been learning and progressing and proving ourselves. See again Abraham 3:22-23

Direct contradictions don't matter? You just pick whichever language supports your point and ignore that which doesn't?

[OtherCheek]

From my perspective? No. It's the LDS who denigrate angels as disobedient.

I'm asking questions here because I'm trying to learn your beliefs. It's sometimes difficult, though, because you have so many alternate definitions for words that it sometimes seems like we're typing in different languages.

But then you just seem to want to denigrate our beliefs--as if that was your actual purpose instead of learning.

[One Bad Pig]

But then you just seem to want to denigrate our beliefs--as if that was your actual purpose instead of learning.

You seem to be confusing denigration with critical examination. My personality type (INTJ) learns through critical examination; we like to pull things apart and look at them from different angles.

[OtherCheek]

You seem to be confusing denigration with critical examination. My personality type (INTJ) learns through critical examination; we like to pull things apart and look at them from different angles.

That my work when it comes to understanding parts, such as clock parts, but not something like the gospel of Jesus Christ. What about trying to look at the "whole"?

Have you ever tried to look at things as a whole? In their whole?

[Bill the Cat]

But then you just seem to want to denigrate our beliefs--as if that was your actual purpose instead of learning.

More like show where they are wrong and try to convince you of your error.

[One Bad Pig]

That my work when it comes to understanding parts, such as clock parts, but not something like the gospel of Jesus Christ. What about trying to look at the "whole"?

Have you ever tried to look at things as a whole? In their whole?

Of course I look at things as a whole. And my in-depth study of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the history of His Church has been quite fruitful, confirming my orthodox faith.