Arguments plz

[Sparko]

Order in the Kangaroo Court!!! Order I say!!!
[queue Law and Order cuchunk sound]

[OtherCheek]

Othercheek's Law #1: arguments are only good if the LDS make them. if anyone else makes an argument, then arguments are bad and you should rely only on the Holy Ghost.

Corollary #1 - Ditto for "evidence" of any kind.

Sparko's Law #1. God cannot be trusted. Man can. God has now way of confirming spiritual truths directly to men, unless it is done indirectly, through a Sparko-approved scholar or scientist.

[wonbyone]

Order in the Kangaroo Court!!! Order I say!!!
[queue Law and Order cuchunk sound]

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, what Jesus taught is important. Especially because orthodoxy has "officially" determined who their Christ is. In their fear of being led astray, they decided to provide a portrait of what they thought Christ should look like. If someone does not agree that the Jesus they believe in looks exactly like their drawing, then obviously that person believes in a false Christ and cannot be called Christian.

OTOH, the Christ of general Christendom and the Christ of the LDS belongs to everybody. His picture is not what is important to us. His teachings are. He was crucified for all of mankind. Anyone who believes in Him and who has faith in Him can be saved. He taught us to believe and have faith in Him, not in man's concept of Him.

It appears to me that it is orthodoxy who created a false christ by making him look only one certain way. They claim that their picture of Him determines His only likeness, and have made Him exclusively theirs.

Wait a sec. . . Are you arguing against a uniform picture of Christ? 'Cause that's what it looks like. Orthodox icons of Jesus Christ are not uniform, although they tend to be similar. However, they're also not meant to be exact depictions of how He looked in the flesh, because there is an attempt to show a spiritual dimension.

I believe fear was the weakness Satan used against man when orthodoxy created this version of Christ and caused them to claim this version to be the only correct one..

I'm sorry, but this is seriously in error, regardless of whether you're referring to iconography or doctrine. The Jews were staunch monotheists in the face of polytheistic pagan society; even Hellenized Jews such as Philo were. I think you'll agree that Christianity started as a sect of the Jews. The early Christians were called atheists by the pagans; in reply, the Christians affirmed belief in one God. They were willing to die for that belief. The pagans, but not the Jews, believed that a mortal could become a god. This pagan belief was, in fact, mocked by early Christian apologists such as Tatian. Irenaeus, whom OtherCheek attempts to use in support of your doctrine, says the following in Against Heresies 4.38.3:

With God there are simultaneously exhibited power, wisdom, and goodness. His power and goodness [appear] in this, that of His own will He called into being and fashioned things having no previous existence; His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. And thus in all things God has the pre-eminence, who alone is uncreated, the first of all things, and the primary cause of the existence of all, while all other things remain under God’s subjection. But being in subjection to God is continuance in immortality, and immortality is the glory of the uncreated One. By this arrangement, therefore, and these harmonies, and a sequence of this nature, man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God,—the Father planning everything well and giving His commands, the Son carrying these into execution and performing the work of creating, and the Spirit nourishing and increasing [what is made], but man making progress day by day, and ascending towards the perfect, that is, approximating to the uncreated One. For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God.

Like the Jews, we believe there is a fundamental difference between God and man. Like the pagans, LDS believe that man can attain godhood.

Satan has caused them to be blind to the fact that they have created a false christ. The very fact that they believe only their christ is correct should be a big warning signal to them. For them to believe that only they are saved because they believe in the "correct" Jesus is an affront to Jesus Himself. Only a false christ determined and created in the minds of mankind would make such a claim.

Perhaps you could explain why we should believe in a pagan Christ rather than a Jewish one. Your Jesus, offering to make you god, is eerily reminiscent of a certain serpent in the garden of Eden. Your Jesus, offering you the rule of your own world, is disturbingly similar to the Adversary offering Jesus the world for His own.

They scoff at our belief that it is possible for us to become like God sometime in eternity.

Yep. We're not pagans.

Yet they already claim the abilities and powers of God because they have been able to determine who God is, what He looks like, and even who is saved. Wow.

God bless,

jo

I'm afraid that you've erected a strawman here, jo. Isn't it you, not us, who give the Father a physical body? Isn't it you who offers images of a Caucasian Jesus, even though He was born of a Jew? Don't the LDS believe that orthodox Christians are apostate (which effectively means we aren't saved)? There is much we can't know about God. On the other hand, it's evident from what has been revealed through Scripture that He is one, and there is no room for another. I can't tell you who's saved. I wouldn't be totally shocked to see LDS in that number - in spite of your doctrine.

[jo7241974]

Wait a sec. . . Are you arguing against a uniform picture of Christ? 'Cause that's what it looks like. Orthodox icons of Jesus Christ are not uniform, although they tend to be similar. However, they're also not meant to be exact depictions of how He looked in the flesh, because there is an attempt to show a spiritual dimension.

I'm sorry, but this is seriously in error, regardless of whether you're referring to iconography or doctrine. The Jews were staunch monotheists in the face of polytheistic pagan society; even Hellenized Jews such as Philo were. I think you'll agree that Christianity started as a sect of the Jews. The early Christians were called atheists by the pagans; in reply, the Christians affirmed belief in one God. They were willing to die for that belief. The pagans, but not the Jews, believed that a mortal could become a god. This pagan belief was, in fact, mocked by early Christian apologists such as Tatian. Irenaeus, whom OtherCheek attempts to use in support of your doctrine, says the following in Against Heresies 4.38.3:

With God there are simultaneously exhibited power, wisdom, and goodness. His power and goodness [appear] in this, that of His own will He called into being and fashioned things having no previous existence; His wisdom [is shown] in His having made created things parts of one harmonious and consistent whole; and those things which, through His super-eminent kindness, receive growth and a long period of existence, do reflect the glory of the uncreated One, of that God who bestows what is good ungrudgingly. For from the very fact of these things having been created, [it follows] that they are not uncreated; but by their continuing in being throughout a long course of ages, they shall receive a faculty of the Uncreated, through the gratuitous bestowal of eternal existence upon them by God. And thus in all things God has the pre-eminence, who alone is uncreated, the first of all things, and the primary cause of the existence of all, while all other things remain under God’s subjection. But being in subjection to God is continuance in immortality, and immortality is the glory of the uncreated One. By this arrangement, therefore, and these harmonies, and a sequence of this nature, man, a created and organized being, is rendered after the image and likeness of the uncreated God,—the Father planning everything well and giving His commands, the Son carrying these into execution and performing the work of creating, and the Spirit nourishing and increasing [what is made], but man making progress day by day, and ascending towards the perfect, that is, approximating to the uncreated One. For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God.

Like the Jews, we believe there is a fundamental difference between God and man. Like the pagans, LDS believe that man can attain godhood.

Perhaps you could explain why we should believe in a pagan Christ rather than a Jewish one. Your Jesus, offering to make you god, is eerily reminiscent of a certain serpent in the garden of Eden. Your Jesus, offering you the rule of your own world, is disturbingly similar to the Adversary offering Jesus the world for His own.


Yep. We're not pagans.

I'm afraid that you've erected a strawman here, jo. Isn't it you, not us, who give the Father a physical body? Isn't it you who offers images of a Caucasian Jesus, even though He was born of a Jew? Don't the LDS believe that orthodox Christians are apostate (which effectively means we aren't saved)? There is much we can't know about God. On the other hand, it's evident from what has been revealed through Scripture that He is one, and there is no room for another. I can't tell you who's saved. I wouldn't be totally shocked to see LDS in that number - in spite of your doctrine.

Hi OBP:

When I speak of what Christ "looks" like, I am not talking about His physical appearance. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Many of the posters tell us we need to be seeing Jesus as they think He should be seen - which includes the trinity. That is why they tell us we are not praying to the "correct" Jesus; because we haven't got the correct ideas about Him. (This, of course, is ludicrous.) They are speaking metaphorically; so that is generally how forms of the word "see" or "look" are being used; i.e., metaphorically. You will also see this verbeage used when we talk about what a certain belief "looks" like.

God bless,

jo

[JAYMZ]

Jesus taught us that many false christs would come. Never have the LDS claimed to be Christ. Neither have we ever claimed that others who believe in Christ are believing in the wrong Christ. In fact, orthodoxy preaches that they have the only true Christ, and deny Christ to anyone who does not agree with their version of Christ.

Christ is universal. Who is teaching the non-universal Christ? He that has ears, let him hear.

This thread has already received posts by individuals whose only reason for being here is to preach anti-LDS propaganda.

So be it.

God bless,

jo

I dont mean to argue, but everyone has to make a choice about what their going to believe about Jesus. Everyone is " selling " their take on Christ.
Some say he was just a good teacher, but thats it. Some say he was a prophet that didnt die on the cross and rise on the third day. Some say he is a " lessor " god, but you do not worship him. Some say he was all spirit and his body was just an illusion. Some say he is one of MANY gods. Elton John just said he is gay. I'm sorry Jo, but all those views are not correct.

Christ is either the " spirit brother of lucifer " or christ is the one that created lucifer.

Scripture says ALL things were created BY Christ and FOR Christ ( Colossians 1:16 )...... so the Holy Spirit through scripture, informs me that all the views stated above are in error.

[jo7241974]

I dont mean to argue, but everyone has to make a choice about what their going to believe about Jesus. Everyone is " selling " their take on Christ.
Some say he was just a good teacher, but thats it. Some say he was a prophet that didnt die on the cross and rise on the third day. Some say he is a " lessor " god, but you do not worship him. Some say he was all spirit and his body was just an illusion. Some say he is one of MANY gods. Elton John just said he is gay. I'm sorry Jo, but all those views are not correct.

Christ is either the " spirit brother of lucifer " or christ is the one that created lucifer.

Scripture says ALL things were created BY Christ and FOR Christ ( Colossians 1:16 )...... so the Holy Spirit through scripture, informs me that all the views stated above are in error.

Does satan have a body of flesh? No. Are we all not existing eternally as a "soul", or as the LDS describe this, a "spirit"? What of the pre-existing soul? What does existing eternally mean to you? If the Bible is not lying, and we exist eternally, and Jesus exists eternally, and satan exists eternally, then how did Jesus come to create our soul/spirit? Is Jesus more eternal than we are? Do you have a different definition of eternal which you use for Jesus? See 2Cor5:1. See also Gen2:7. Do you think that we only "enter" a point of eternity when our physical bodies die, and THEN we live in eternity only from that point forward with our soul/spirit until our bodies are resurrected, and then continue our eternity with both spirit and body?

Let me know what your thoughts are on this.

God bless,

jo

[JAYMZ]

Does satan have a body of flesh? No. Are we all not existing eternally as a "soul", or as the LDS describe this, a "spirit"? What of the pre-existing soul? What does existing eternally mean to you? If the Bible is not lying, and we exist eternally, and Jesus exists eternally, and satan exists eternally, then how did Jesus come to create our soul/spirit? Is Jesus more eternal than we are? Do you have a different definition of eternal which you use for Jesus? See 2Cor5:1. See also Gen2:7. Do you think that we only "enter" a point of eternity when our physical bodies die, and THEN we live in eternity only from that point forward with our soul/spirit until our bodies are resurrected, and then continue our eternity with both spirit and body?

Let me know what your thoughts are on this.

God bless,

jo

First of all, I believe we existed when God decided we would exist. I dont believe when it was time for my conception God fished my spirit out of some kind of tank full of pre-existing spirits.
There are two possible scenarios of what I believe.
1) That God created my spirit at conception.
2) Or thats its a implanted part of the egg/sperm coming to - body/soul unity.

The problem is that the error in theology is begetting other errors.

It all starts with the faulty LDS premise that God and man started out the same. The idea that God had the same beginning as humans, and all goes down hill from there.

God is God...................and we are but dust.

[RumTumTugger]

Sparko's Law #1. God cannot be trusted. Man can. God has now way of confirming spiritual truths directly to men, unless it is done indirectly, through a Sparko-approved scholar or scientist.

:irony:

[Sparko]

If the Bible is not lying, and we exist eternally, and Jesus exists eternally, and satan exists eternally, then how did Jesus come to create our soul/spirit?
jo

can you show me where the bible says we and satan exist eternally?

[JAYMZ]

Jo, please go over Colossians 1:15-20

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Break each line down and tell me what you think is being communicated by Paul. Try no tot think about mormon doctrine or orthodox doctrine but let the scripture speak plainly and remember................. words have meaning or they dont.

[JAYMZ]

Jo, please go over Colossians 1:15-20

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Break each line down and tell me what you think is being communicated by Paul. Try no tot think about mormon doctrine or orthodox doctrine but let the scripture speak plainly and remember................. words have meaning or they dont.

Also Jo, " Firstborn " here should not be seen as a order of creation but a legal title of eminance. The greek work is Protokos. " Firstborn " in this passage should be view in the same way as in Genesis 25:23, Exodus 4:22 and psalm 89:27 ( were David is NOT a firstborn )

[spitndirt]

Hello JAYMZ,

First of all, I believe we existed when God decided we would exist. I dont believe when it was time for my conception God fished my spirit out of some kind of tank full of pre-existing spirits.
There are two possible scenarios of what I believe.
1) That God created my spirit at conception.
2) Or thats its a implanted part of the egg/sperm coming to - body/soul unity.

Have you considered the possibility that your spirit is not actually yours...but God's? IOW, that which sustains life in us who are but *dust* (think in terms of breath).

The problem is that the error in theology is begetting other errors.

Which is why theology is not the basis of life in Christ. Obedience anyone?

It all starts with the faulty LDS premise that God and man started out the same. The idea that God had the same beginning as humans, and all goes down hill from there.

I think there's enough faulty premises to go around, JAYMZ.

God is God........

And He is spirit.

...........and we are but dust.

Yup, dust.......imbued with a spirit of life from God (breath).....and hopefully the Spirit of Light (Holy Spirit / true Life) as well.

[JAYMZ]

Which is why theology is not the basis of life in Christ. Obedience anyone?
.

You just made a theological statement.

[spitndirt]

You just made a theological statement.

You wish....

What about *obedience* is theological? There is quite a difference between *hearing and obeying* and *intellectual deduction*. Do you not recognize the distinction?