Arguments plz

[jo7241974]

Hmm, I started reading through this whole thread and in the middle of page two still hadn't seen a real response to the OP, just lots of posturing.

First let me clarify my position, I am a Christian of the non-LDS variety and while I don't affiliate myself with any particular denomination my views can be widely regarded as evangelical.

While I am at a loss as to how people can accept the views of LDS for reasons that would take a long time to write I am impressed by some of the mormon's operations and I think we could learn from them.

1. I am impressed by how they manage their money and successfully encourage their children to pursue professional careers.

2. I am impressed by their system-wide co-ordination, their ability to act as one. I think that if the current non-mormon Christian body actually acted as a body on a national and international leveI instead of chronically comparing themselves and bickering like prize poodles at the dog-show, then we would have a much greater ability to steer culture and direct peoples attention to their Savior.

3. I am impressed by their resistance to the prosperity gospel, though it could be that I've just failed to see it in LDS, anyway, few things make me more angry than hearing the prosperity gospel. grrr

That said I personally view mormons as being very similar to, and on par with the moslems. They have a lot of truth but as Proverbs says "a little evil outweighs much good." I have many mormon friends and they're all great people (as far as people go), I read half the book of mormon my freshmen year in undergrad and was just disgusted by what a blatant rip-off it was and how the literary style was clearly cloned from the KJV version.

_Nathan

Hi Nathan:

It's nice to meet a new poster to the LDS forum!

I was raised Lutheran and joined the LDS Church in my 20's. The best decision I ever made! I appreciate your honesty . You are probably already aware that we believe that all of the churches have some of the truth, just as you believe we have some of the truth.

We are told by others all of the time in words similar to yours about how they like the way the LDS are organized, how they function, how the members are good people, etc., even though you do not understand how we can believe the things we do. And when you expressed the desire that all of Christendom were able to act as one, you said a mouthful. The only other time Jesus' church functioned as a single unit was before the Apostles died. Through the use of various stratagems, the evolving Catholic church tried to keep things unified and were unable to do so.

Hopefully you will see the wisdom in your words and be drawn to God in sincere and humble prayer to inquire as to how this can be so; how the fruit of the LDS Church produces such love and oneness not only in their love for Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, their love and care for others not of our faith, but also in their ability to function as one Church which has grown to cover the earth and has not been destroyed or withered away.

God bless,

jo

[Sparko]

Hi OC,

I absolutely agree with your speculation. I also think it possible that Father possessing all knowledge, who also has limiltess abilities, could very well enjoy His own epiphanies now and again. This does not mean that He didn't know everything there was to know.

You agree with his "speculation"??? after arguing with OBP that God isn't Omniscient?

Jo, you just flip flop from post to post. Dang it girl! Just take a stance and stick with it! You don't have to be afraid to disagree with Othercheek or anyone else! Just stick to your guns and argue your point or admit you are wrong and go on. You don't have to keep trying to agree with all of the LDS members here at the same time.

However, with unlimited eternity, and unlimited powers why limit Him to not being able to expand something to the point where He is able to create new knowledge? Doesn't "limitless" project along with the concept that with God "all things are possible" hint at such a possibility? Or are these terms of "limitless power" and "all things are possible" really just words we use to explain something we cannot comprehend, and they are the best terms we could come up with, but not really what we meant? IOW, do we use these terms only to demonstrate our acknowledgment of His almighty power and authority as God? Otherwise, there IS a limit to knowledge, possibilities and power; this, in turn, limits God. This could also mean that God indeed must deal with properties, etc. which co-exist with Him.

God bless,

jo

Here is the problem with a God who "learns" new knowledge. It means he doesn't know what's going to happen next. He can't know the future because he doesn't have all knowledge. That means he can't give prophesies, at least not accurately, they would just be guesses or him forcing things to happen the way he wanted them to. He can't know the free will actions of anyone in the future. Like when Peter was going to deny Christ three times. How would he know that before it happened?

A God that is learning does not have foreknowledge.

and before you go with the "well he makes it happen" option, read this:

We do not believe in a deterministic God—that is, one who determines in advance the eventual fate of His children. Rather, we believe in a God who has perfect foreknowledge of the choices His children will make. He may use this foreknowledge to guide us or even to warn us, but He does not use it to preempt our agency. He allows us to become what we truly desire to become. As Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote: “[God] knows what each will do under given conditions, and sees the end from the beginning. His foreknowledge is based on intelligence and reason. He foresees the future as a state which naturally and surely will be; not as one which must be because He has arbitrarily willed that it shall be.”

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...____&hideNav=1

[OtherCheek]

You agree with his "speculation"??? after arguing with OBP that God isn't Omniscient?

Jo, you just flip flop from post to post. Dang it girl! Just take a stance and stick with it! You don't have to be afraid to disagree with Othercheek or anyone else! Just stick to your guns and argue your point or admit you are wrong and go on. You don't have to keep trying to agree with all of the LDS members here at the same time.

Lighten up from the oppressive evangelizing, Sparko. There is nothing edifying in your approach, and if you think you are doing God any favors with this approach, then you are deceived.

Here is the problem with a God who "learns" new knowledge. It means he doesn't know what's going to happen next. He can't know the future because he doesn't have all knowledge. That means he can't give prophesies, at least not accurately, they would just be guesses or him forcing things to happen the way he wanted them to. He can't know the free will actions of anyone in the future. Like when Peter was going to deny Christ three times. How would he know that before it happened?

In the LDS Church, there is room for differing concepts of God. But you would not know that because you aren't here to get information or understanding as you already admitted. You are here just to force-feed your prejudices and biases.

The scriptures say "The Spirit knoweth all things" (actually that isn't in the Bible, it's in the BoM, so you probably reject the truth of it).

I have a personal witness that the Spirit even knows what needs to be done to fix a configuration issue with a router.

But since you are here on TWEB with an eye single to finding points of contention, anything we say will likely go in one ear and out the other anyway.

[wonbyone]

Lighten up from the oppressive evangelizing, Sparko. There is nothing edifying in your approach, and if you think you are doing God any favors with this approach, then you are deceived.



In the LDS Church, there is room for differing concepts of God. But you would not know that because you aren't here to get information or understanding as you already admitted. You are here just to force-feed your prejudices and biases.

The scriptures say "The Spirit knoweth all things" (actually that isn't in the Bible, it's in the BoM, so you probably reject the truth of it).

I have a personal witness that the Spirit even knows what needs to be done to fix a configuration issue with a router.

But since you are here on TWEB with an eye single to finding points of contention, anything we say will likely go in one ear and out the other anyway.

Ahh...Nothing trumps the good ole "personal witness". And Sparko was right Jo flip flops on just about every argument.

[jo7241974]

Ahh...Nothing trumps the good ole "personal witness". And Sparko was right Jo flip flops on just about every argument.

Something terrible accomplished by the council of Nicea is that they left absolutely no room for any type of discussion at all on what you call the "essentials". They even frightened members enough to the point that they do not allow themselves to see what those beliefs look like beyond the scope of what the council determined was far enough. Now orthodoxy takes this same approach to any group they perceive as being in error. Unfortunately, they use this method against everything another group believes....not only the "essentials", but everything. In your mind, this leaves no room for even the slightest difference between individuals of the same faith regardless of the subject matter.

How sad for you. What you see as "flip flopping" in reality is a normal and reasonable conversation between individuals who have open minds and who are unafraid of looking at what their beliefs actually mean if extended into eternity. On the subject in question, I happen to see more being possible than what OC perceives. This does not mean I disagree with OC, or that my concept ever disagreed with his. It means that his concept is encompassed by what I think is possible. The difference in our perception may be merely a result of definitions and/or clarification to which point our conversation is still evolving. That's how discussions work, btw. We aren't accessing studies done by others in order to puppet another's thoughts. We are having our own original thoughts. With the basis of our beliefs founded in truth and unified understanding, any thinking we do in applyng our beliefs gives us awesome and often unexpected possibilities to contemplate. And we don't have to be afraid to think them.

In the long run, whatever we may speculate on subjects which are based upon points of interest and which have no affect on salvation (for instance, we know we must be baptized, we must receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc; so there is little room for speculation), conjecture leads to healthy free-will thinking which cannot help but exercise the possibilities of what living eternally can be like. It is not necessary for us to be correct or incorrect. It does not cause contention. It presents opportunities for us to find even further enjoyment in living our religion as we all grow and progress in our personal journey.

I have yet to see anything OC has ever written which strays from the teachings of the Church. I have seen things he has written which have given me insight into things I either knew little about, or things I had never thought about before. Because we each enjoy our own journey, we can learn from each other by sharing. This is as it should be because it is not Father's goal or even His desire to direct us in all things. It is individuals like Sparko who think, for some reason, that the LDS ARE directed in all things. When we fail to meet Sparko's expectations he has little pirate fits.

You do not even recognize that our free-will thinking is proof that the LDS Church does NOT brainwash its members. Quite the contrary is true. In encouraging us to seek truth wherever we can find it, we are able to embrace what the world has to offer while being protected by the Holy Spirit that our searching can enrich our lives and not endanger our souls. The most remarkable thing of all is that the more we learn either inside or outside of the Church, all of the truths ties out with what the Church teaches. The truth found in the additional revelations given to Joseph Smith are strengthened; ALL scripture continues to tie out even more than before. Joseph got it right! He is a prophet of God! Father loves us and has given us more than you can even begin to realize. Jesus loves Father, and He loves us! He has restored His Church!

You fail to recognize that the limitations placed upon your own beliefs. which you then project upon us. is clear evidence that it is you who have been brainwashed. You are missing so much!

Prayerfully step back and look outside the box of orthodoxy. It will do you a world of good.

God bless,

jo

[wonbyone]

Something terrible accomplished by the council of Nicea is that they left absolutely no room for any type of discussion at all on what you call the "essentials". They even frightened members enough to the point that they do not allow themselves to see what those beliefs look like beyond the scope of what the council determined was far enough. Now orthodoxy takes this same approach to any group they perceive as being in error. Unfortunately, they use this method against everything another group believes....not only the "essentials", but everything. In your mind, this leaves no room for even the slightest difference between individuals of the same faith regardless of the subject matter.

How sad for you. What you see as "flip flopping" in reality is a normal and reasonable conversation between individuals who have open minds and who are unafraid of looking at what their beliefs actually mean if extended into eternity. On the subject in question, I happen to see more being possible than what OC perceives. This does not mean I disagree with OC, or that my concept ever disagreed with his. It means that his concept is encompassed by what I think is possible. The difference in our perception may be merely a result of definitions and/or clarification to which point our conversation is still evolving. That's how discussions work, btw. We aren't accessing studies done by others in order to puppet another's thoughts. We are having our own original thoughts. With the basis of our beliefs founded in truth and unified understanding, any thinking we do in applyng our beliefs gives us awesome and often unexpected possibilities to contemplate. And we don't have to be afraid to think them.

In the long run, whatever we may speculate on subjects which are based upon points of interest and which have no affect on salvation (for instance, we know we must be baptized, we must receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc; so there is little room for speculation), conjecture leads to healthy free-will thinking which cannot help but exercise the possibilities of what living eternally can be like. It is not necessary for us to be correct or incorrect. It does not cause contention. It presents opportunities for us to find even further enjoyment in living our religion as we all grow and progress in our personal journey.

I have yet to see anything OC has ever written which strays from the teachings of the Church. I have seen things he has written which have given me insight into things I either knew little about, or things I had never thought about before. Because we each enjoy our own journey, we can learn from each other by sharing. This is as it should be because it is not Father's goal or even His desire to direct us in all things. It is individuals like Sparko who think, for some reason, that the LDS ARE directed in all things. When we fail to meet Sparko's expectations he has little pirate fits.

You do not even recognize that our free-will thinking is proof that the LDS Church does NOT brainwash its members. Quite the contrary is true. In encouraging us to seek truth wherever we can find it, we are able to embrace what the world has to offer while being protected by the Holy Spirit that our searching can enrich our lives and not endanger our souls. The most remarkable thing of all is that the more we learn either inside or outside of the Church, all of the truths ties out with what the Church teaches. The truth found in the additional revelations given to Joseph Smith are strengthened; ALL scripture continues to tie out even more than before. Joseph got it right! He is a prophet of God! Father loves us and has given us more than you can even begin to realize. Jesus loves Father, and He loves us! He has restored His Church!

You fail to recognize that the limitations placed upon your own beliefs. which you then project upon us. is clear evidence that it is you who have been brainwashed. You are missing so much!

Prayerfully step back and look outside the box of orthodoxy. It will do you a world of good.

God bless,

jo

Earlier you were arguing that lds members who disagree with official lds doctrine were disfellowshipped and now your saying that mormons have freedom to disagree which is it? Also since you don't believe that there are secondary doctrines would differing opinions on the gift of tongues keep someone out of Heaven?

[jo7241974]

Earlier you were arguing that lds members who disagree with official lds doctrine were disfellowshipped and now your saying that mormons have freedom to disagree which is it? Also since you don't believe that there are secondary doctrines would differing opinions on the gift of tongues keep someone out of Heaven?

Those who would preach/teach a different belief than what the Church teaches are given the opportunity to present their differences to their Bishop and/or Stake leaders. There can be many many reasons an individual may teach something incorrect. These reasons can range from innocent unintended misinformation being taught such as from just plain ignorance, a carryover from a belief held in another religion, or simply misunderstanding a teaching. However, for the individual who wilfully and knowlingly continues to teach incorrect doctrine there are different disciplinary actions which can be taken which can result in disfellowship, or ultimately excommunication.

Holding a different opinion about something is very different from teaching. Most frequently, as people continue to learn (you don't learn everything overnight....that is why you continue to go to Sunday School throughout your life), there is a natural evolution of understanding and learning taking place. Common sense can tell us if something can be detrimental to where you end up in eternity. The same commandments are given to all of God's children. When someone decides to knowlingly ignore a commandment, or wilfully makes choices they know are wrong, or when they break a covenant they have made with God, they know there will be consequences. We each have our own free will in making choices. The Church does not decide who is saved or where someone goes.

What is in our hearts; and what has been personally revealed to each of us and what we do with that information, i.e., if we choose not to do something we should do, or do something we know we are not supposed to do; these types of choices along with the state of our hearts are what will determine which degree of glory we will receive.

God bless,

jo

[Hamster]

Something terrible accomplished by the council of Nicea is that they left absolutely no room for any type of discussion at all on what you call the "essentials"

Here's what the Council of Nicea decided, after inviting virtually every Christian church across the known world:

1. prohibition of self-castration; (see Origen)

2. establishment of a minimum term for catechumen;

3. prohibition of the presence in the house of a cleric of a younger woman who might bring him under suspicion (the so called virgines subintroductae);

4. ordination of a bishop in the presence of at least three provincial bishops and confirmation by the metropolitan;

5. provision for two provincial synods to be held annually;

6. exceptional authority acknowledged for the patriarchs of Alexandria and Rome, for their respective regions;

7. recognition of the honorary rights of the see of Jerusalem;

8. provision for agreement with the Novatianists;

9–14. provision for mild procedure against the lapsed during the persecution under Licinius;

15–16. prohibition of the removal of priests;

17. prohibition of usury among the clergy;

18. precedence of bishops and presbyters before deacons in receiving Holy Communion, the Eucharist;

19. declaration of the invalidity of baptism by Paulian heretics;

20. prohibition of kneeling during the liturgy on Sundays and in the fifty days of Eastertide ("the pentecost"). Standing was the normative posture for prayer at this time, as it still is among the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. (In time, Western Christianity adopted the term Pentecost to refer to the last Sunday of Eastertide, the fiftieth day.)[40]


So I guess if you want to castrate yourself while kneeling in church to sign up for a VISA you are out of luck

[wonbyone]

Those who would preach/teach a different belief than what the Church teaches are given the opportunity to present their differences to their Bishop and/or Stake leaders. There can be many many reasons an individual may teach something incorrect. These reasons can range from innocent unintended misinformation being taught such as from just plain ignorance, a carryover from a belief held in another religion, or simply misunderstanding a teaching. However, for the individual who wilfully and knowlingly continues to teach incorrect doctrine there are different disciplinary actions which can be taken which can result in disfellowship, or ultimately excommunication.

Holding a different opinion about something is very different from teaching. Most frequently, as people continue to learn (you don't learn everything overnight....that is why you continue to go to Sunday School throughout your life), there is a natural evolution of understanding and learning taking place. Common sense can tell us if something can be detrimental to where you end up in eternity. The same commandments are given to all of God's children. When someone decides to knowlingly ignore a commandment, or wilfully makes choices they know are wrong, or when they break a covenant they have made with God, they know there will be consequences. We each have our own free will in making choices. The Church does not decide who is saved or where someone goes.

What is in our hearts; and what has been personally revealed to each of us and what we do with that information, i.e., if we choose not to do something we should do, or do something we know we are not supposed to do; these types of choices along with the state of our hearts are what will determine which degree of glory we will receive.

God bless,

jo

Oh so you do believe in non-essential doctrines after all.

[franktalk]

Damn, do I seem that dumb, hahaha.

No you do not. But when you add a comment about metaphysics 101 you invite comments in like vein. If you not wish to get questioned about your mental state then don't invite the questions. Stick to the subject.

[franktalk]

So you believe Time is God? Not a creation of God due to gravity? And of course God can see the future, if all of time is laid out as singularity from his perspective, like a painting or book.

By the way, Christ ties in to all of this.

Time is not God. But all of creation came from the mind of God. So as a painting reflects something of the painter the creation refects something of God. God has embedded many things in His creation that we can understand. For instance, God loves beauty and has given us the ability to appreciate it as well. God is the universal moral code. He has given us a moral rudder to navigate through life. And of course many other relationships as well.

Time is a thing just like a rock. We are told not to worship things so I take that to mean not to worship time. Maybe that is why time and space are linked so we would not separate out time from the rest of the creation.

[One Bad Pig]

God is not progressing in knowledge or power.

You certainly believe he was at some point, and that's the belief I was arguing against.

However, I believe his dominions are expanding, his creations and his family is expanding, and will do so forever and ever.

I'd like to see you support that belief.

And every time a person actually turns his life to righteousness and to following the Gospel, God's dominion grows.

Uh, no, it doesn't. God rules over all, whether his creation acknowledges it or not - though of course they will, when at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When God creates worlds and spirits to inhabit those worlds, his dominions expand, etc.

I'd like to see you support this as well.

[OtherCheek]

You certainly believe he was at some point, and that's the belief I was arguing against.

Oh. OK.

I'd like to see you support that belief.[/quote]

Don't you think that whenever God creates something, that his dominions expand?

Uh, no, it doesn't. God rules over all, whether his creation acknowledges it or not - though of course they will, when at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I'd like to see you support this as well.

I see this as a voluntary confession. I don't see God's dominion extending to those who don't choose to follow him. I see that as the dominion of the devil.

[One Bad Pig]

Don't you think that whenever God creates something, that his dominions expand?

There's an assumption here that I'd like to see supported. Let's see if you can figure out what I'm referring to and support it. If you can't figure it out, I'll tell you what it is in my next reply.

I see this as a voluntary confession. I don't see God's dominion extending to those who don't choose to follow him. I see that as the dominion of the devil.

How do you get voluntary from "every knee will bow?" Also, God has dominion over the devil, and by extension everything the devil has dominion over.

[Sparko]

Something terrible accomplished by the council of Nicea is that they left absolutely no room for any type of discussion at all on what you call the "essentials". They even frightened members enough to the point that they do not allow themselves to see what those beliefs look like beyond the scope of what the council determined was far enough. Now orthodoxy takes this same approach to any group they perceive as being in error. Unfortunately, they use this method against everything another group believes....not only the "essentials", but everything. In your mind, this leaves no room for even the slightest difference between individuals of the same faith regardless of the subject matter.

How sad for you. What you see as "flip flopping" in reality is a normal and reasonable conversation between individuals who have open minds and who are unafraid of looking at what their beliefs actually mean if extended into eternity. On the subject in question, I happen to see more being possible than what OC perceives. This does not mean I disagree with OC, or that my concept ever disagreed with his. It means that his concept is encompassed by what I think is possible. The difference in our perception may be merely a result of definitions and/or clarification to which point our conversation is still evolving. That's how discussions work, btw. We aren't accessing studies done by others in order to puppet another's thoughts. We are having our own original thoughts. With the basis of our beliefs founded in truth and unified understanding, any thinking we do in applyng our beliefs gives us awesome and often unexpected possibilities to contemplate. And we don't have to be afraid to think them.

In the long run, whatever we may speculate on subjects which are based upon points of interest and which have no affect on salvation (for instance, we know we must be baptized, we must receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc; so there is little room for speculation), conjecture leads to healthy free-will thinking which cannot help but exercise the possibilities of what living eternally can be like. It is not necessary for us to be correct or incorrect. It does not cause contention. It presents opportunities for us to find even further enjoyment in living our religion as we all grow and progress in our personal journey.

I have yet to see anything OC has ever written which strays from the teachings of the Church. I have seen things he has written which have given me insight into things I either knew little about, or things I had never thought about before. Because we each enjoy our own journey, we can learn from each other by sharing. This is as it should be because it is not Father's goal or even His desire to direct us in all things. It is individuals like Sparko who think, for some reason, that the LDS ARE directed in all things. When we fail to meet Sparko's expectations he has little pirate fits.

You do not even recognize that our free-will thinking is proof that the LDS Church does NOT brainwash its members. Quite the contrary is true. In encouraging us to seek truth wherever we can find it, we are able to embrace what the world has to offer while being protected by the Holy Spirit that our searching can enrich our lives and not endanger our souls. The most remarkable thing of all is that the more we learn either inside or outside of the Church, all of the truths ties out with what the Church teaches. The truth found in the additional revelations given to Joseph Smith are strengthened; ALL scripture continues to tie out even more than before. Joseph got it right! He is a prophet of God! Father loves us and has given us more than you can even begin to realize. Jesus loves Father, and He loves us! He has restored His Church!

You fail to recognize that the limitations placed upon your own beliefs. which you then project upon us. is clear evidence that it is you who have been brainwashed. You are missing so much!

Prayerfully step back and look outside the box of orthodoxy. It will do you a world of good.

God bless,

jo

there you go again. First you complain that we have too much freedom in our views and we should cast out any denomination that doesn't agree with all doctrines 100%, like LDS does.

Then you complain that we don't allow any freedom at all and should allow more room for disagreement like the LDS does.

Jo, stop with the drugs or caffeine or what ever you are on.