Commentary thread: Daniel's 70th Week: Past, Future, Or Both

[TyRockwell]

I agree. It IS probably true that the 70th week ran from the baptism of Jesus, through his three and a half year ministry and resurrection, then resumed for "the end that is decreed, poured out on the desolated temple" (Dan. 9:27). The way to avoid "the gap theory," though, in the 70th week, is to put the decree Jesus made, "Behold, you house [temple] is left to you desolate." at the end of the 70th week. Those words fufilled "desolations are decreed" from Daniel 9:26. And at that point you can consider it a 'done deal' that was finally seen in 70 AD. I will accept the 'gap' if you consider the end of the 70th week being the 70 AD destruction of the temple. There was never an intended nearly 2000 year gap, with the 70th being disconnected from the 69th week of Daniel. My point of the 70th week beginning during the ministry of John the Baptist was merely theoretical, since John the B proclaimed "The kingdom of heaven is at hand," and Jesus began his ministry with the same message. Jesus said, "from the days of John the Baptist, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing,(suffers violence) and the violent take it by force (forceful men take hold of it). NIV

It is also possible that the second half of the 70th week was fullfilled in the disciple's ministries in the first three and a half years after Jesus' ascension, or from the Day of Pentecost. I don't think these scenarios hurt scriptural integrity, but putting the 70th week, or half of it, off, for 2000 years does violate the meaning of the prophecies.

[MegaHertz]

It is also possible that the second half of the 70th week was fullfilled in the disciple's ministries in the first three and a half years after Jesus' ascension, or from the Day of Pentecost. I don't think these scenarios hurt scriptural integrity, but putting the 70th week, or half of it, off, for 2000 years does violate the meaning of the prophecies.

I tend to promote the 2ns half of the 70th week as starting on the day of resurrection and ending with Peter teaching Gentiles in Acts:10. The 2nd half is marked by events referenced as ' the overspreading of abominations' (that took place on Holy Ground)

Animal sacrifice would have been viewed by God as being an abomination, money-changers would have returned and they were also called an abomination by Jesus two times. Last, but not least, is Stephen's death taking place within 3 1/2 years of the cross.

Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

BTW, the apparent conflict caused by the Gospel of John not allowing for 6 months from the return from the wilderness until He was at the first Passover is solved by adding in John's 6 months that he was called prior to Jesus being baptized. (that is why Matthew and Mark jump from the return from the wilderness to preaching what John preached but could not once he was put into prison)

In the above version Rome is also removed from being part of the iron/clay to being part of the brass. If the completion of the 70 weeks throws some doctrines into conflict guess what Rome in the brass does. lol

[TyRockwell]

I tend to promote the 2ns half of the 70th week as starting on the day of resurrection and ending with Peter teaching Gentiles in Acts:10.

I have theorized that scenario, in the past, and have mentioned its' possibility, in this thread. The question that it leaves me, is, "why do you not recognize Ancient Rome being in the time of iron?" You must be implying a future tribulation with an antichrist, as futurists/dispys do. In that case, putting the Iron Era into the future, calling the Roman era part of the brass, you miss the true timing, and meaning of when the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled. The only prophecy of Daniel that was not fulfilled in the first century was Daniel's unsealing.
Another proof of Rome's time fulfilling the Iron Beast is its' mingling with the clay in the feet and toes of Nebuchadnezzar's dreamed image of Daniel's chapter 2. Remember, ancient Israel was the clay. This alludes to Jeremiah in the potter's house, where God analogizes Israel on the potter's wheel. The lesson in that passage, is that God has the right to do with Israel whatever it takes for Him to fulfill His purposes. See Isaiah 46:10. This truth shows that Rome occupied Israel. But, because the iron and clay were brittle, the Jews would not assimilate into Roman culture. Nor would they accept Caesar as their ruler.
Yet another meaning of Daniel's interpretation of the dream, in Daniel 2:44-45 is that Jesus Christ, in his first coming, was the "rock cut out of a mountain, but without human hands, that struck the image on its feet, and broke the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver and the gold kingdoms to pieces. And, because he initiated the New Covenant, then rose from the dead, the Church that Jesus is building has become a mountain that is filling the earth. As Daniel told the dream, in Daniel 2:34-35, all the parts of statue were broken AT THE SAME TIME, in verse 35. There is NO GAP between the breaking of the gold, silver, brass, and clay, with a large gap of time later that the iron was to be broken, and became like chaff on a threshing floor. The Holy Spirit was the wind that was given to the Church, which "swept them away without leaving a trace." This all adds up to mean that the kingdom of heaven, living within all God's children will be the true ruling power in the earth, when the Church reaches maturity and greater unity. There really are NO kingdoms on earth that have greater power than the Church, empowered by the Holy Spirit. This is coming to be evident, as a witness to all nations.

[MegaHertz]

I have theorized that scenario, in the past, and have mentioned its' possibility, in this thread. The question that it leaves me, is, "why do you not recognize Ancient Rome being in the time of iron?"

Da:2 says the brass will “shall bear rule over all the earth”. Alex was the first king of the brass but his 2 week rule over Jerusalem would not qualify. Rome was a 'kingdom' that lasted 500 years and in that time it ruled most of the known world.. The verses in Da:8 about the 'little horn' apply to a power that is in the brass, the one that qualifies for fulfilment in those ones in Da:8 and the 70 week prophecy. The 4 Gospels cover the events to fulfil the 70 weeks verses and the rest of the NT is still included as being referenced in the Da:8 verses.

You must be implying a future tribulation with an antichrist, as futurists/dispys do. In that case, putting the Iron Era into the future, calling the Roman era part of the brass, you miss the true timing, and meaning of when the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled.

I'm pointing out that where Rome is mentioned in Luke 21:20 as being the one in power when the time of the Gentiles starts means she does not have to be the same one in power when the last 42 months of that period begins to unfold as mentioned in Re:11. Rome's rulers were given over the authority to use a 'sword' against evil, Christians are tole this in Romans 13 and they are instructed to be 'law abiding citizens to the Governments as well as to Jesus's two Laws.

The only prophecy of Daniel that was not fulfilled in the first century was Daniel's unsealing.

Daniel has a chapter on each metal kingdom and for the iron it is Da:11 and the 4th beast of Da:7.

Another proof of Rome's time fulfilling the Iron Beast is its' mingling with the clay in the feet and toes of Nebuchadnezzar's dreamed image of Daniel's chapter 2. Remember, ancient Israel was the clay.

Mankind is clay, if Israel was involved it would be 12, like in the 12 named tribes in Re:7. Instead it is the 10 hornes (men) of the 4th beast in Daniel 7 and the 10 men in Revelation.

Da:7:7:
After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth:
it devoured and brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;
and it had ten horns.
Da:7:8:
I considered the horns,
and,
behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and,
behold,
in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man,
and a mouth speaking great things.

Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

This alludes to Jeremiah in the potter's house, where God analogizes Israel on the potter's wheel. The lesson in that passage, is that God has the right to do with Israel whatever it takes for Him to fulfill His purposes.

It is a lesson that the potter is always the potter and the clay is always the clay. At no time will the clay ever mould who the potter is.

See Isaiah 46:10. This truth shows that Rome occupied Israel. But, because the iron and clay were brittle, the Jews would not assimilate into Roman culture.

The verse below has more meaning but it does not point to exclusion, it if referencing where the starting point to a global conquest begins.

Isa:46:13:
I bring near my righteousness;
it shall not be far off,
and my salvation shall not tarry:
and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer:25:30:
Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words,
and say unto them,
The LORD shall roar from on high,
and utter his voice from his holy habitation;
he shall mightily roar upon his habitation;
he shall give a shout,
as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.

The 'Jews' in Acts:10 were shown that all Gentile food was clean to make their teaching the Gentiles in the Nations easier.

Nor would they accept Caesar as their ruler.

Then they weren't following what Romans 13 laid out, you can still teach about God and Jesus while staying within the laws of the Nation you live in. (as defined by the words in that chapter)

Yet another meaning of Daniel's interpretation of the dream, in Daniel 2:44-45 is that Jesus Christ, in his first coming, was the "rock cut out of a mountain, but without human hands, that struck the image on its feet, and broke the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver and the gold kingdoms to pieces.

Then again if Jesus can be shown to be in the 'little horn' verses in Da:8 then that means all prophecy related to the iron/clay remains to unfold, all of Da:11 more or less, all of the 4th beast in Da:7 and any beast from Revelation is included. When those prophecies are manifest then the following kingdom will be one with sinless immortal people inhabiting the earth in a 'preview' of way things will work after the GWT.

And, because he initiated the New Covenant, then rose from the dead, the Church that Jesus is building has become a mountain that is filling the earth. As Daniel told the dream, in Daniel 2:34-35, all the parts of statue were broken AT THE SAME TIME, in verse 35.

This is the 'time of the Gentiles that was created in Luke 21:20 verses, in that period of time the Bible was to be published to all parts of the earth so that all people will have heard of the name of God. That means they can be judged by God's standards when that day comes, the standards that will be used are in the 7 letters to the 7 Churches.

There is NO GAP between the breaking of the gold, silver, brass, and clay, with a large gap of time later that the iron was to be broken, and became like chaff on a threshing floor.

Not a break, the brass just lasts far longer that is currently accepted, Rome was the Gentile Army in control of Jerusalem, things stay that way until the two witnesses are killed, on that day it falls under the control of Satan who has had control of the rest of the world for 3 1/2 years, God allows him to have control of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days then all the wicked are slain on the very same day the 2 are resurrected.

The Holy Spirit was the wind that was given to the Church, which "swept them away without leaving a trace."

Maybe they were just compass points., like the 4 heads are 4 kings that rule over Jersualem as part of the brass. Rome is the only power that was also a dominion that ruled over Jerusalem after Alex too control. Really the direction she was from is even given.

Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.

Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.

This all adds up to mean that the kingdom of heaven, living within all God's children will be the true ruling power in the earth, when the Church reaches maturity and greater unity.

If that was going to happen it already would have, the truth is the Bible gets followed less and less as each century passes, if we could 'fix that' we wouldn't need God in that area.

There really are NO kingdoms on earth that have greater power than the Church, empowered by the Holy Spirit. This is coming to be evident, as a witness to all nations.

Sure there is, the land of the enemy has not yet been conquered. The Church can't even take on the responsibility of running the banks for the world where OT rules also cover all Gentiles. The Church has no business dealing with the sword they are to be giving relief to the poor, that is done through banking practices not wars of conquest.

M't:2:16:
Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men,
was exceeding wroth,
and sent forth,
and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem,
and in all the coasts thereof,
from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
M't:2:17:
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,
saying,
M't:2:18:
In Rama was there a voice heard,
lamentation,
and weeping,
and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
and would not be comforted,
because they are not.

Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.