Commentary thread: Daniel's 70th Week: Past, Future, Or Both

[MegaHertz]

First, I need to say that antichrists are not men, they are spirits, as John said in his epistles. He said the Antichrist was already present, but also, "many antichrists have come." Now, antichrists usually do act through men who are leaders in governments. Almost always, Christians' foes have been governments, kingdoms, or empires.

Would the follower of a false prophet be an antichrist?
Going just by a few verses the persecution of Christians did not stop with Saul's conversion, even as Paul he was persecuted by agents of the Temple in Jerusalem. Those blind Jews would be considered to be antichrists and when Rome is said to have persecuted (in Scripture) they would be acting in the role of an antichrist. Judas only became an antichrist when Satan entered him and if he later repented the Satan also left him at some point after the kiss in the garden. Anybody in breech of His two laws would seem to qualify as antichrists. If no single man is righteous before God then without grace we would also be antichrists (just by defination) In the beginning of Revelation are 7 Churches that represent a base from which that Book went out into the world. The names above the doors to the Churches have changed but the relationships with God can be found in Christians today. Some are definitely called to 'overcome' certain things or they will not be alive for the 1,000 years. Right up until the sound of the 7th trump people can repent and it works, they will be alive for the 1,000 years, they might have to be resurrected to be there though. Some might try and repent after but it is too late, they will be part of the ones who miss being alive for that time.
It is from those same letters that tribulation and great tribulation are defined as separate events. Prior to the text of the letters John says he is a companion to those who are going to be in tribulation, in the actual text one punishment that is forecast is being put into great tribulation. The last 3 trumps are defined as woes and Satan is said to have wrath for the earth (Re:12) and the way that wrath plays out on earth is in the descriptions associated with just the 5th and 6th trumps. The 3rd woe begins at the 7th trump and the vials are the description of that event, it is Christ killing all the sinners in the world as defined by who was doing what at the sound of that trump.

In the verses you are referencing, Rev. 17:12-13, it says,

The 10 horns you saw are 10 kings, [not 'men'] who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour (a short time, or a season) will receive authority as kings along with [coinciding with] the beast.
They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

One human king is one human man. There being 10 men is also promoted by what Daniel left as info on that last period of time before the return.

Da:7:20:
And of the ten horns that were in his head,
and of the other which came up,
and before whom three fell;
even of that horn that had eyes,
and a mouth that spake very great things,
whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Da:7:21:
I beheld,
and the same horn made war with the saints,
and prevailed against them;

((these two references stress that each king is just one man but all those who obey them in those Kingdoms is the power they can add to the Beast's forces. The False Prophet is the 'stout' one mentioned and the two Witnesses resist him and the Beast from the Pit kills the two and that is how they are delivered into his hands, for 1day, 2 days, and 1/2 day. 7th trump is within one hour of their resurrection))

Da:7:24:
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:
and another shall rise after them;
and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

It is an important point that the ten kings are not mere, or average men. In verse 14 you'll notice, these kings have a King. Jesus has all authority, and delegates it to Christians, who are kings in Christ. This is a present reality. And we are now taking our authority back from the beast we loosed. (The Government)

I didn't mean to imply they were 'average people', since the power is given in an hour it could be 10 men who can influence the military, economic, and religious establishments. Their worship of Satan and the Beast comes very early in the 42 months the Beast is given.
The point of defining this is that it should define the same people/places as the ones named in Jer:25 and that covers the whole earth, a list that is much longer than just 10 names. This also should blend in with a few other things in other passages. The 10 kingdoms created by the Beast would be the ones Christ claims as His in Re:11 when the 7th trump sounds. That is one hour after the two witnesses are resurrected to the clouds. Once the vials are finished these different kings come to Israel to worship Christ, 10 men take control based on language rather than land location. Their journey is made easier because the rivers east of Jerusalem were dried up as part of the destruction of the wicked. That is who the 'kings of the east' are rather than being part of the 2nd woe army of 200M. It is their blood that flows bridle deep and furlongs in length. All the destruction they can do is limited to the period of time that is defined as the 2nd woe. The 3rd woe (all the vials). The end of the journey started below would be the 1st feast of the tabernacles of the 1,000 years.

Zec:8:23:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass,
that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,
saying,
We will go with you:
for we have heard that God is with you.

No, that's not right. Rev. 11:9-10 tells us MEN [ It doesn't say, 'kings' ] from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. They that dwell upon the land (or earth) [around Jerusalem] will gloat over them and celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live in the land (or, on the earth).

It calls them merchants, part of having the mark of the beast is the 'ability' to buy and sell. Even those 10 men (the Beast's kings) could have the opportunity to be spared being in hell if they repent and run very fast the moments the two witnesses rise to their feet. The earthquake that happens with the hour would most likely be the destruction of 7,000 men that are highest on the list as being the best followers of Satan. Their death is the destruction of Satan's Babylon (called Jerusalem until the death of the two witnesses) Re:14 is the expanded version of this time. The destruction of Babylon takes one hour from the time that earthquake starts. There are some verses between that and the angel being given permission to start reaping the sinners.

Re:18:7:
How much she hath glorified herself,
and lived deliciously,
so much torment and sorrow give her:
for she saith in her heart,
I sit a queen,
and am no widow,
and shall see no sorrow.
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Re:18:9:
And the kings of the earth,
who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her,
shall bewail her,
and lament for her,
when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Re:18:10:
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city!
for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re:18:11:
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Maybe you should consult more verses. Rev. doesn't say '2/3 of all mankind die at Christ's return.' Where did you get that?

That comes from this verse. The short version of the 'little ones' being Gentiles is the next chapter (same passage) is about Gentiles, some being rewarded and some being punished. That is the whole population of the Gentiles for the 1,000 years. The long version is the fulfillment of a prophecy in the garden the night Jesus was arrested. The 'smite' was the cross and after Stephen's death Christians, other than the Apostles, were leaving Jerusalem and Judea. By 70AD that trend had not reversed itself. Within a few years after the cross the Gospel was being preached to a previously forbidden people, the 'little ones'. Besides that are more factors, one being the whole house of Israel is alive before the cleanup from His wrath starts.

Zec:13:7:
Awake,
O sword,
against my shepherd,
and against the man that is my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts:
smite the shepherd,
and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

During the 6th Trumpet, Rev. 9:15 and Rev. 9:18, a time that spans about 2000 years, 1/3 of the human race's time on earth, a time came when 200 million mounted troops were killed. There were approximately that number of people killed in the wars of the Twentieth Century.

All that is well and fine but is not within a 3 1/2 year timeline, those 2 trumps combined add up to 42 months and no longer. If trump #5 is 5 months long (150 days in Noah's time) then the remaining time is 37 months, 1110 days. 1/3 of mankind is over 2 billion people at today's population. Last century had more deaths than the century before it, this one could well have more than any other before it is over. If the antichrist is not the Beast from the Pit (angelic being) and not the False Prophet the group (remnant) should be who it is the antichrists alive at that time.

Re:19:20:
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rome was the first Nation to have power over Jerusalem when there was no temple, that was the part of the time of the Gentiles and that time period is still in effect for the time the two Witnesses are in Jerusalem. Re:11

Nonsense. Daniel 8:9-14 has no reference within the NT. That chapter in Daniel covers the wars between Persia and Greece, and concludes with the Greeks, under Antiochus IV Epiphanes invading Israel and desecrating the temple and creating an abomination of desolation. The temple was rededicated in 165 BC after 2300 sacrifices had been missed.

Da:8:13:
Then I heard one saint speaking,
and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Da:8:14:
And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The sacrifice and the desolation could be the same event. Prayer would become a death sentence after the claim of being God is made by the False Prophet. Their destruction starts just about that very day.

The transgression would be a throne in Jerusalem, possible only at the end of the Beast's time and Christ's return is their destruction and His building His House of Prayer is on the same day. Without a temple the sacrifice we offer is via prayer, those prayers are heard in the temple being measured at the beginning of Re:11. Applying that to the other side of the 7th trump it is close to the time of 7 years (2520 days) that are said to be given for a cleanup of Israel (Eze:39)

Just this one part could easily take up a few pages. lol

Alex was the great horn of Grecia and his death resulted in a new leader that that 'inherited' Jerusalem. When Grecia is said to go to the 4 winds that would be the 4 Generals, but not all 4 ruled Jerusalem. Even if you count the one General as being one of the 4 later horns that could still qualify Rome as being within counting range of separate Empires having control of Jerusalem during that 70 weeks.
When looking at that same period of time in Daniel 9 there is one verse to describe the 69 weeks and two that covers that one last week. The wording of that doesn't make anything prior to the last week as being very important to the 70, the start of that 70th weeks is Jesus and His companions over a seven year period. The verses from Da:8 is Romes view and it covers a broader range of time than 7 years divided by the cross. The whole of their Empire is mentioned more in Scripture than something that is only called 'troublesome'. Having a change from the brass to the iron is a little more than a bump in the road. During Romes time they became the 'people of the prince to come' and Romans 13 gives the power to fight evil to the Governments of the world. That chapter even defines what evil is, briefly it is law enforcement, private and military, that obeys the orders of the leaders of their various Nations. Used in the proper way the citizens of the land are protected, it can become evil itself if the sword is used to create evil on the ones it was mandated to protect. Today all governments are corrupt to various degrees. Once the Beast from the Pit is manifest and can interact the effects of the 2nd seal would be the norm. The sword the Nations were left can and will be used by 10 men to be a terror to the very ones it was meant to protect. In Isaiah:56 and Jeremiah:25 they are the shepherds that are about to be punished in those passages.

Da:9:25:
Know therefore and understand,
that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again,
and the wall,
even in troublous times.

I can see a possibility of starting the 70th week with the prophesying of John the Baptist. But that would make John's declaration of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" as the mid-point of the 70th week. Interesting. However, the stuff about the stoning of Steven, and Paul preaching in Rome doesn't fit into the 70th week, at all.

Since there is no actual way to date them it can't be shown as being exactly 3 1/2 years, the stoning and the vision do take up about 4 chapters so they are not unimportant events and the stoning would certainly qualify as an abomination in the NT if exile to Babylon was because of killing OT Prophets. That is something that is said to happen after the cross. The first 3 1/2 can be supported a lot easier, perhaps we are given the task of doing some thinking like with the Beast's 42 months, take away 5 what is left? 37 would be the 'best fit' answer. When he is sent to the lake would seem to be the end of the 42. lol Sometimes I find it easier to backtrack a sequence to determine the beginning and in this case the 42 months are inclusive of belonging two trumps. Tribulation as far as the iron kingdom is concerned is about to start when the first of those 3 sounds. The sound of the 7th one is Christ's arrival.

Re:8:12:
And the fourth angel sounded,
and the third part of the sun was smitten,
and the third part of the moon,
and the third part of the stars;
so as the third part of them was darkened,
and the day shone not for a third part of it,
and the night likewise.
Re:8:13:
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

[MegaHertz]

I'm not trying to sandbag the topic but when all the verses about the brass kingdom is in one place Rome is the only power mentioned in Scripture that fits. The first verse below should put Rome in contention (as well as finish the argument), no other kingdom that has ruled over Jerusalem (in those 490 years) has also became a power a worldwide power (any Government that is dictated by Roman Law and customs today). As far as Scripture was concerned the power of the sword that was left to combat evil was given to the Government of Rome (with the hope that they would adopt Christ's two Laws also)

Da:2:39:
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,
and another third kingdom of brass,
which shall bear rule over all the earth.

((the leopard is Alex, the 4 wings are the 4 directions it went and the 4 heads are kingdoms that ruled over Jerusalem after Grecia loses possession to another Empire. The dominion that the brass has is the one from the above verse))

Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.

((Alex and the successive kings of the time of the brass, up to a total of 4 separate Kingdoms before the start of the iron. Revelation has Rome (Gentile) being the 6th king and the two after are Satan (who opens the pit for the Beast which had a limited time 3 1/2 years)))

Da:8:8:
Therefore the he goat waxed very great:
and when he was strong,
the great horn was broken;
and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

((Rome to Jerusalem))

Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.

((Rome's rule was about 60 years old when Jesus was born and it lasted for centuries after the Book of Revelation was in circulation. By 60AD Apostles had been killed by Rome and being a Christian and being a Jew would not save the ones who would be rounded up as a result of the siege and destruction of the Temple in 70AD. By the time Rome ceased to be a power their last leader had embraced Christianity in a similar way that Neb had accepted God by the time he died. John being in prison on Patmos could have been a result of that 70 AD conflict with the Jews in Jerusalem, Christians fled the area when Stephen was killed. From the Epistles of John the writer was far from Israel (travel required to be face-to-face)when those letters first saw the light of day) ))

Da:8:10:
And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped upon them.

(( Even though Pilate washed his hands of the affair the crucifixion took place with Rome blessing as well as men and equipment, Rome was the physical force at both events))

Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

((Rome did a service for God, they were taken the Gospel first and they haven't followed it all that well since that time, by rights their coffers should have a yearly day where they are emptied out and given to the poorest of the congregation. Don't hold your breath on any Church doing that. For all it's faults the RCC is still a large organization ))

Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.

((This would be used by my doctrine to be the time from the cross until Stephen was killed (transgression after all things about Jesus had been revealed to the Temple staff) and the time Jerusalem was to be trodden was when Rome was made clean as far as receiving the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. That 'officially' made them 'people of the prince that shall come'. Gentile Nations keep that status until the Beast from the Pit is released for that last tribulation period.

Da:8:13:
Then I heard one saint speaking,
and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake,
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice,
and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

((applying that to Jesus's time it was started at the cross I don't know if Stephen's speech would have been classified as cleansing the Temple. No Christian (including the Apostles) are ever said to have been in the Temple after that, Jerusalem yes, the Temple specifically, no. Changing the 2300 days to years is cheating as the day for a year is not given until chapter 9. lol)

Da:8:14:
And he said unto me,
Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

((this is just here because it is the transition from the brass to the iron. The 'latter time' is the last 3/12 years of Gentiles controlling Jerusalem, the brass covers the whole 'time of the Gentile' that was started back in Jesus's time. Satan and the Beast might be kings of the world but they only get possession of Jerusalem once the two witnesses are dead))

Da:8:21:
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia:
and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Da:8:22:
Now that being broken,
whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,
but not in his power.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.

[TyRockwell]

The wheel was already invented. And its a lot less square than yours is.

[MegaHertz]

Hope you don't mine me moving the reply it dosen't deal with the rapture very much.

I have taken my time to respond to your posts. I didn't want to lightly toss out the things you have proposed. Though you did not give much information to support your ideas, I wanted to look into them for any possibility of their veracity. I will address points in this thread, and some points on the same topic in the "Sticky: 70 weeks Commentary" thread.

I appreciate that and it would be nice if the two points that I am promoting in Daniel didn't have such profound effect on most other doctrines. In a nutshell it puts Revelation in the future and even then there are enough markers in that Book to determine how the times mentioned are applied to the last tribulation.

My earlier comments were my original impressions concerning your ideas, and I admit, an abrupt dismissal of them. Since then, I have sought to understand your position.

Again I appreciate that and I'm not trying to convert you, the 'opposition' is always better at finding defects in a doctrine and truthfully I haven't got any 'blatant errors'. ..... so far.

First, I have to say that if you introduce a new idea into a discussion, you need to give some underpinning, by reasoning, or logic, analogy, or pattern of symbolism. I understand easily enough, how you want to fit a part of Daniel into the future, that is, your theory that the three and a half years of Daniel 7 relate to the 42 months of the two witnesses. I have ruminated that the second half of the 70th week might refer to the time of the prophesying of the two witnesses, but I still have serious doubts about that scenario.

Only the kingdom of Iron part and the one way to do that. Revelation counts empires not individual kings in the duration of an Empire. When Revelation was written Rome was the power (6th king), the 7th king is Satan once he is tossed out of Heaven (5th Trump. 1st verse.) and almost immediately the one fallen angel released makes a deal with 10 men that are given control. (Satan being king is shown back in the days of Jesus when he tempted Jesus by offering all the kingdoms of the world, to be able to do that you have to be king of the earth and it is Satan olone that was left out of the pit back in Noah's time.

That said, I can quickly and confidently reject your assumption that the three and a half "times" of Daniel 7 coincide with the two witnesses. This is because I am convinced that the half-week of Daniel 7 is the first half of the 70th week, and coincides with the three and a half year ministry of Jesus the Messiah. That leaves the second half of the 70th week to mean either the 66-70 AD seige and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, or the 42 months of the two witnesses. Right now, I am leaning back toward the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In this, then, I am not a futurist. Also, regarding the destruction of the Temple, I am not a futurist.

You seem to allow 'the times' to be 3 1/2 years, the only part in question is the when. When Jesus was in the grave it was a rather 'quiet weekend' , when the two witnesses are in the grave it is like the fair and the 4th of July all rolled up into one (gifts being exchanged, etc). Does it matter to that theory that Jesus didn't have a full 3 1/2 year ministry. The Gospel of John mentions 2 separate Passovers, proving 3 years but from when He came back from the 'wilderness' there is not 6 months possible when you read the verses, a few days here and there, a week or two doing other things, just does not add up to 6 months unless they crawled on hands and knees to Jerusalem. The whole thing would be less than a full month, to get a full 3 1/2 years you need the 6 months that John is said to be older than Jesus by. If Jesus was called by 'about 30' then John was also called when he was 'about 30'. Going with the 4 Gospels Jesus's actual ministry was even less than 3 years. Matthew and Mark skip from the wilderness to Jesus preaching the Kingdom of God only after John was put in prison. In John, Jesus and John are doing things before John was put in prison that come after the events of the 1st passover and the first upsetting of the money-changer's tables. Joh:3:24:
The destruction is mentioned as part of the 70 weeks but my version has the events of the 3 1/2 years after the cross as being the reason the temple was destroyed 40 years later. Had it happened at that very moment then the Apostles would not have had the extra time they had. I have to assume when they were the last Christians in Jerusalem they were still converting people right up to when they also left, prior to 70AD. In the prophecies that Jesus gave in Matt:24 when it says to flee when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies is 70 AD as far as I can tell but when the version of that same setting in another Gospel says the time to flee is when they see an abomination standing where it should not be. It is a reference to the image that is built in Revelation and it is referenced in Daniel 11, not Daniel 9.

Re:13:15:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
that the image of the beast should both speak,
and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Now, going back to your position, I didn't get from your posts how you think the three and a half "times" in Daniel 7:25 is the second half of the 70th week, since you don't specify what is the first half. And, you make the 'times' the 42 months, just prior to the seventh trumpet.

In my position all of the 70 weeks is one solid block of time that has a beginning and end that is 490 years (btw way I agree with you that lunar or solar dating doesn't matter for that period of time. Leap years are automatically installed when counting by 7's.) That 490 years has two way-points, 7 weeks and 62 weeks. Not that this part matters right now but how can you determine that use of 'times' in Daniel 12 isn't talking about the 70 and the 3 separate sections, time=7 weeks, time=62 weeks, half= 3 1/2 years. If the scattering is taken to mean the Gospel being taken to the Gentiles or the removal of the need for a Temple dedicated to blood sacrifice then that system of counting arrives at the same point, by fluke. Trying to apply that to the last woman in Re:12 in the same way I would apply it you the period of time the protection is said to apply to, time=trumps 1,2,3,4 (pre tribulation that is still dangerous to life, times= trumps 5 & 6, tribulation associated with Satan wrath, dividing= the 2nd half of that partial day the two Witnesses are dead)

Da:12:7:
And I heard the man clothed in linen,
which was upon the waters of the river,
when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,
and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time,
times,
and an half;
and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,
all these things shall be finished.

Since there is one more point to cover might as well do it here than later (it will save time). In the times that are given later in Da:12 (1290 and 1335) the extra days are usually added onto the end of some 1260 day period. In my case the extra in the case of the 1335 is applied to the time prior to the 1260 days. In my case counting back from the 7th trump 3 1/2 years is the sound of the 5th trump, 3 1/2 days for the 4 trumps and the time before that would be the sealing of the 144,000 during the time associated with the coals from the alter before God are cast to earth. Along with the 144,000 from Israel there should be some of the 1/3 of Gentiles that also are sealed (other than the two Witnesses) for protection as being part of the woman in the wilderness. In the trib that means keeping a very low profile, the two Witnesses are all Christ need to keep Satan in line.

The interaction points to 42 months that are 30 day months. 2Thess:2 states that the man of sin comes after Satan is doing things. The Beast makes his first appearance at the start of the 5th trump, that is who the key releases, a fallen angel that was also operating from the fall until the flood, being put in the pit was the 'wound that became healed' when the pit is unlocked for him. Rome is the king that 'is', Rome represents the start of the time of the Gentiles over Jerusalem. The Beast from the Pit is who kills the two Witnesses in Jerusalem. They are given 1260 days which is equal to OT times of 3 years if the counting is started the year after a leap year, a whole 3 1/2 years can be inserted without having to deal with leap months. The earth is claimed by Christ one hour after they are resurrected back to life. The Beast has no time left at that point. The 5 months of the 1st woe (5th trump) is equal in length to the 5 months of Noah's time.

But you hurt your own argument, saying that the 42 months, the three and a half times, is taking place during the 5th and 6th trumpets. A period of 5 months takes place with the 5th trumpet, but no 42 months is mentioned, and no three and a half years. In the 6th trumpet, the words "hour and day and month and year" is given, but no 42 months, and no three and a half years, since the description of the 6th trumpet stops at the end of chapter 9.

The last 3 trumps are all considered to be woes, Re:8:13, Satan being cast to the earth is said to be 'bad for the Earth', Re:12:12.
For the most part trumps 5 & 6 are Satan's POV of the time from when he hits the earth and when he is put in chains. Act #1 is to release the Beast and that moments starts a countdown of 42 months. Woe 1 is the 5th trump, length 5 months, ends with the sound of the next trump which also starts woe #2. You are right by the end of that chapter the 1/3 are killed. Chapter 10 is a summary of how the 1/3 that survive the 3rd woe see events. Satan's wicked ones see it as Re:16. Re:11 also mentions the end of the 2nd woe, so along with 1/3 of mankind being killed ft 4 fallen angels the beast from the pit also kills the two witnesses and it has control of Jerusalem for only 3 1/2 days. When the 7th trump sound the vials get poured out on Satan's followers within a few hours and it is a worldwide event. The whole 2/3 that will die are dead in a very short time and the ones needing resurrection also happens in a very short time.

To me, the words that are in these trumpets, that cover chronological periods, argues against the use of other blocks of months or years, or times. That would be mixing up sets of metaphorical periods with no distinctions. God is not the Author of confusion.

True but if 5 months is equal the 5 months in Genesis then the Beast's months is based on that form of dating. If it can also be shown that the Beast is in the lake during the 7th trump then the Beast's time is up when that 3rd woe starts. That leaves determining the length of the 2nd woe as being 42-5=? The first 4 trumps would be in the brass as the transition period takes place when the 10 men accept the Beast's offer of a kingdom for earthly rewards.

Another thing, when considering the trumpets, you must bear in mind that Jesus is the First Trumpet, as revealed in Revelation 1:10-18, particularly verse 10. Taking into account that he was talking to John at the end of the 1st Century, and the futurist's tendency to squeeze the trumpets into a 'final' set of years, then they are putting at least 1900 years between the First Trumpet and the remaining trumpets. That is, they put about 1900 years between Rev. 8:7 and Rev. 8:8. Not a good thing to do.

Actually that is the 7th trump which is the same one that sounds in Re:11. Re:10 is the resurrection of people, the church that is being spared the wrath of God that comes that same trump

The church was expecting the seventh trumpet, the Last Trumpet, to sound in their lifetimes in the first century. Therefore, trumpets one through six were already underway and in progress at that time. We still await the seventh trumpet.

The voice that will be heard on that day is Christ's voice and the sound below is the sound of the 7th trump, the book has the names of the 1/3 that survive the fire of Zec:12
Re:10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[MegaHertz]

You are trying to make a principle out of an action not taken, with the "Christ never used the sword on anybody" thing. To the contrary, Jesus IS the Word of God, thus making God's commands to put people to the sword Jesus' commands. Also, The Word of God is a sharp double-edged sword, and sharper, in Hebrews 4:12, which also procedes from his own mouth. (Rev. 1:16) See also Isaiah 1:20.

Leaving the Nations the sword is not the same thing at all, as Jesus only left them a few words of guidance and the Holy Spirit is silent as far guiding any Nation other than Rome sacking Jerusalem. Christ will also use His sword against the Nations on His return. In prophecy there is only one time Christ has to clean things up once God has authorized Him to claim the Earth as belonging to the Kingdom of God. No sin and no sinners during the whole of the 1,000 years. The two groups of the living are Israel according to as defined in Eze:37. That goes back to Jacob and Israel in the early OT. The Church would be all Gentiles going back to Adam. During the 1,000 these two groups have a slightly different 'duties'. Israel is rebuilding the cities and vineyards etc and the remnant of the Nations are messing around with plowshears and coming to the yearly feast of the tabernacles. Everyone alive at the beginning of that 1,000 is immortal and equal to Angels in that they are not given in marriage. No marriage no sex, no sex no children. This is an intermittent time , Satan is not in the lake yet. These two group can be classified as Saints (the type that are around the throne when the seals are broken). Satan's release does not bother them, they are there to witness fire from God in Heaven compared to Satan and Fallen Angels, only 5 or 6 were sent to the lake. After this event they are considered to be Priests and Kings to God and the Lamb, the ones they will be priests and kings to in the new earth are the ones who only come alive at Judgment Day, rather than being sent to the lake they are the ones who live outside new Jerusalem. The new Priests and Kings stay inside new Jerusalem and they do the same role as just Israel did during the 1,000 years minus any beasts of the field. The beasts of the field and all other flesh except for unsinful mankind can enter the city. The ones not alive for the 1,000 years become what was the 'remnant' of the nations' during the 1,000 years with the exception that the new babies can marry at 20 years old and they stop having children when they turn 120 years old because at that time they are declared to not be a sinner and they are given immortal life. What may seem like a cruelty is just the process we have today that is expanded on. The immortals that live in the new Earth are grand-parents and the ones living inside the new city would be great-grandparents. The bit they lose from them not having their own infants is made up by the volume of infants that enter through the 12 gates.

In Isaiah, God said that He would fight along with Nebuchadnezzar to defeat Israel, and plunder Jerusalem and burn the temple, putting people to the sword, and taking the survivors into captivity in Babylon.

Think of the millstone in Daniel and Revelation as being when Satan's Babylon is destroyed. You are going to find I use a lot of the OT verses that talk of the day of the Lord as being singularly for Christ's return. This is based on what this conversation would have gone like.

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

That means no matter how many prayers have been said to date in times of tribulation the time being referenced is the tribulation mentioned by John in Re:1:9, the latter days are the 42 literal months that the Beast of the Pit makes saying such prayers a necessity. After that tribulation is over the ones causing it are destroyed and that is the end of tribulation on the earth, from that very point the garden has a tree of life that is available to anybody alive. The garden is in it's destroyed state and the rebuilding is part of the 1,000 years minus the building of the House of Prayer of Prayer Zec:6:12: and the river of Eze:47 comes from that house of prayer. All literal fulfilments.

For the most part the 70 weeks of Daniel was a dry spell as far as having people from God writing down any prophecies. Once the passage that ends with the sorting being done in Da:12 nothing much is written about just how the millstone is executed. I'm totally aware that the 12 book that are listed after Daniel were from Prophets before Daniels time (except Ezra) but the prophecies they wrote about was the coming of the Messiah as King of Kings. I won't get into details in this post but every time a prophecy speaks about 'that day' in the list of books after Daniel is about the coming of the Messiah, the 7th trump of Revelation is the millstone of Daniel.

Re:18:21:
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone,
and cast it into the sea,
saying,
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down,
and shall be found no more at all.

Just by that alone every reference to Babylon in the OT should be checked for context. Jeremiah especially due to the fact that involves beasts of the field (the feast in this case) Neb is said to be the head of gold that is also likened to being a king of kings. Da:2:37: So even for Jeremiah if 'that day' is not specific to Neb's Babylon. Even with Neb's name there it could be an example of how Christ does things.

Jer:25:31:
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword,
saith the LORD.

As for the "New Heavens and New Earth" in Isaiah 65:17-25, you need to notice that in numerous prophetic passages, prophecies of things to happen in the far distant future are plopped down into a section having a much nearer fulfillment.

Not in this case, it has specific signs in Isa:65 and that could only apply to after Satan's little season is over and done with. You cannot build and have it last forever (in the Nations) if fire from God in Heaven pretty much melts the elements of the earth and in the next verse have God say the earth and the heavens are nowhere to be found. The only event between that and the new earth is a thing called Judgement Day of the 'remnant of mankind'. So far the ones from the 1,000 years would be residents of the city, they visit the homes in the new Earth they do not build and inhabit, that is what the ones who were made clean by God after Judgement Day when they were resurrected from the graves and from hell and from the Sea (which is the Noah's flood dead). God and the Lamb make a covenant that allows them to be alive in the new earth to rebuild it as Israel was rebuilt during the 1,000 period on earth. If pushed this verse below would mean all the previous fish, fowl, and beasts of the field would be restored to life as immortal beings as long as there was mankind to care for them. Since that would be an ever increasing number of people what we call the heaven of today would be part of the new earth of tomorrow, a small part of it, worlds in the below I would take to mean planets. In keeping with Jesus saying He can only do what the father has shown Him when God made the Earth Christ should have also had the ability to create 'planets' but not stars.

Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;

I don't know of anyone saying there won't be natural human beings in the 1000 year reign who can die in that time. People saying that would be a very small minority.

It is only based on Angels were always a set number. New Jerusalem has a set size, God wants a set number of people to reside in New Jerusalem once the new Earth begins. It is like the Temple staff of the OT, their flock is on the other side of the 12 gates. The 1,000 years was their 'training period' and what Christ showed them in land restoration techniques would be shown to the new arrivals, Infants belong to the people outside the Temple. Other than Israel I'm not even sure there will be many beasts of the field around. When it says Christ makes a covenant with them specifically it could mean after the feast on flesh that is part of His return when they lay down in safety they are dead and they will be revived by the living water once it is flowing to the pastures in what is called the New Earth. While it may appear as speculation it would explain why this verse says what it does. If you have a large amount of people that date back to Adam that are suddenly give an eternal homeland the way to make it happen fast is to restore life to all the flesh that has already drawn breath. From a sudden flood the growth rate would go back to normal.

Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

Are you confusing the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth, this earth, with the New Heavens and New Earth? In the new heavens and new earth there will be no more dying, or sickness or anything of the curse of sin and death. But in the Milleneum, there are mortal people, and if one dies at only 100 years old, he will be thought to have died young.

No, Christ arrives and the 1,000 begins, at the end of the 1,000 Satan is given a little season and at the end of that fire from heaven Satan and the earth. Everybody alive for the 1,000 years goes through their 1st rapture when they go to where God is going to hold Judgement Day. Whoever was in hell or in death are also there for Judgement Day, they are fresh from paying the price of their old sins so they are sinless when resurrected.

You have in no way come close to explaining or showing Biblical evidence that 'many days' is actually 1000 years. You have a lot to prove, and you will not be able to do it. And it isn't there in Isaiah 24:22.

Work on the 70th week being in the brass is central to all of this 'falling into place', if the ramifications of the future wasn't so vast the posts would be much shorter. Hopefully by over explaining my position it might require fewer posts. Hopefully you will just pick one part to reply on and most of this is so interconnected it hardly even matters what part is questioned, but Daniel is a good place to start. Once you look at the iron specific verses by themselves they aren't Rome or a revived future Rome and the iron does not start before Revelation is written as it contains details not covered in Daniel. Hopefully that part can be explored as it is the easiest way to crash the rest such as the overlapping times in Revelation when Daniel's 70th week is scratched off the list of OT influences. Now you have to work in almost every passage (not verse) that contains terms used in Revelation, such as 'that day', 'one day', etc.

You are attempting to re-invent the wheel in your own image. It can't be done. A lot of things appear in prophetic scripture only one time, or are introduced in prophecy, that was not mentioned before it appeared in the prophecy.

Not really, asking if a knowledge gained in Ch:9 can be applied to prophecy given earlier is not reinventing anything. As it is that is just a minor point that is solvable only after the brass and iron are more closely defined. The brass has already been done, part of the iron should show even Rome is not a diverse as this last one.

You have a lot of work to do to try to prove that Jeremiah 31:31-34 didn't refer to the New Covenant Jesus made in his body and blood in the bread and the wine at the Last Supper. The earlier part of chapter 31 refers to the return of Israel from Babylonian exile. It had to happen in the course of God's plan for the people and to bring the Messiah into their Land.

Hopefully exploring some of the tangents that are cause and effect related in these long posts.That is a covenant made with the same ones in Eze:39:25 which are (along with the Church) the servants of Isa:65:13. The woman who cannot be comforted is the one referenced in M't:2:18: and the place her children can only be brought back from is a literal grave.
Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

The resurrection as described in Eze:37 is how that come about for those infants as well as the rest of the whole 12 Tribes. (as well as the righteous Gentiles)

Ezekiel 37 was a symolic picture of the return of Israel from Babylonian captivity. Their restoration to their land, and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, AT THAT TIME was going to seem like a miraculous resurrection.

Apparently Neb was the start of a very long exile. This whole no protection for the last tribulation is because of the sins that lead to that very exile. The whole 70 weeks was so that last 7 years could be played out. From that Christ was able to baptize with the Holy Spirit and from that wer got the writings of the NT. Some of the things hidden from Daniel are made known in the NT, including a lot of specific periods of time that dictate how prophecies about the OT are applied to the sequences laid out Revelation.

Nope, you are re-inventing the wheel. You need to explain what you mean by the '42 months of the beast. The 42 months is the prophecying of the two witnesses. The beast kills them, but the beast itself was not a 42 month entity.

The Beast is an Angelic entity, in the 5th trump he can manifest as an almost endless number of scorpion sized 'locusts'. That would seem to be only for the first 150 days of his 1260 days (after conversion), how it manifests for the remaining time is as something else. How he kills the two witnesses is not given. The 42 months and the 1260 days overlap except for a 3 1/2 day offset. That would imply that the Witnesses time starts 3 1/2 days prior to the 5th trump sounding. The beast cannot be said to have any time left once the 7th trump sounds

[treeOflife]

hello!

I'm new here, but what do you think of this?
I think the beast is the roman catholic church, rome. it will rule the world with an eucumenical world religion and a world governement.

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

the roman catholic church ruled the world for a while, but no more now and will rule it again soon.

"And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

rome is called the seven hills city. sette colli di roma.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

since 1929, the vatican is an independant state with kings. there had been 7 popes and kings since 1929.
john paul 2, the sixth was the most popular of all.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

the last pope will be the eighth and may be an angelic entity taking the form of a former pope, like a resurrected john paul 2. the most popular eucumenical pope.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

the ten horns maybe ten regions of the world governement. everybody's talking about world governement nowadays.

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

the woman is rome, the city that ruled the world.

one title of the pope is vicarius filii dei, in roman numerals it equals 666.
http://biblelight.net/666.htm#OFFICIAL

what do you think of these?!

[treeOflife]

Hello everyone,

I want to tell you my interpretation of the seventy weeks prophecy.
first, I want to say that this is just an idea, I am not saying that what I will say here is the truth. please read it until the end and if you have some ideas, I’ll be glad to hear them.

let’s go!

«Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.»

basically, what god may be telling daniel here is that he will be with the jews and jerusalem (helping them and guiding them) for 490 years. at the end of these 490 years, the messiah jesus-christ will come to reign on earth for the resurrection, the millenium, the final judgement and the new earth.

«Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks»

the beginning of this seventy weeks period is «the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem» the end of these 70 weeks is the second coming of christ and the millenium. but it doesn’t mean that there will be 490 years between this 2 events, there may be thousands of years between these two events, but god will be with the jews and jerusalem for 490 years.

first, we must know exactly what is this commandment to restore jerusalem? is it the decree of cyrus (stated in isaiah 45.1) or is this the sending forth of nehemia to build the wall? if we choose the first one some say the year is 530 BC and if we choose the second one, some say it is 445 BC. the point it this, some say that we don’t have any reliable chronology for theses centuries, jewish’s chronology, josephus’s chronology, persian’s chronology, ptolemy’s chronology. none is totally reliable.

nevertheless, it’s clear that the approximative 500 years (this is a mean number) from this decree to the first coming of jesus-christ (based on unreliable chronologies) are very close to the biblical 483 years of the prophecy. I mean, what are the chances? this is very close.
with the faith, we may believe it.

«Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.»

the idea is this... the first seven weeks, are from the commandement to rebuild the city unto the actual rebulding of the street, the wall and the temple. the bible told us that jews had many troubles to rebuild the temple ( book of ezra and nehemia). if someone has a precise biblical timing for this construction, I would be glad to have it.

by faith we can say that the 62 weeks are from the actual end of the rebuilding of the city and temple to the death of jesus-christ on the cross.

«And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself»

there is the breaking point. when jesus-christ dies on the cross (and resurrects 3 days laters) the veil of the temple is rent. for me, it is a clear symbol that god is angry against the jews and is leaving his temple. from this point, god won’t be «only with the jews» as a chosen people anymore but with every man on earth who follow his gospel and receive his holy spirit. the apostles are sent to teach the whole earth.
this is the end of the 69 weeks or 483 years.

«and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood »

the romans attack jerusalem with a great army and destroy the temple and the city

«and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.»

now desolations are determined for israel until the end of the war between jesus and satan, until armageddon and the millenium.

jerusalem will be under roman domination, catholic domination, muslim domination... and jews will still be scattered.

the seals of revelations are opened and troubles come on earth.
the first seal, the second seal, the third seal, the fourth seal, the fifth seal, the sixth seal...
when the sixth seal is opened, the 144000 elects are marked to be protected.

when the seventh seal is opened, the angels are given seven trumpets for more calamities are coming.

the angel sound the first trumpet, then the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth...
and when the sixth angel sound the sixth trumpet, john is given instructions and a rod to measure the temple.

«And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.»

that's it, the antichrist is building the third temple. and god comes again to help and guide the jews, his people, his promise. this is the last week, the last 7 years before the millenium.

«And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:»

the antichrist is building his temple in jerusalem, with the help of the jews who left the holy covenant.

«And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.»

now this is the beginning af the last week. for the first 3 days and a half, or the first 3 years and a half god will send his 2 witnesses on the earth. to witness against this satanic covenant and against the people of the earth.

«And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.»

and in the middle of the week, the beast shall ascend from the pit and kill the two witnesses. and their bodies will be exposed during 3 years and 6 months, we can say during the reign of the beast on earth. the last seven cups of torments are poured on earth, on the men who have the mark of the beast.

«and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate»

«And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.»

but still god will keep the 144000 elects under his protection in the wilderness.

and at the end of the week, after the «42 months» or «3 years and 6 months», or «1260 days». christ will return on the cloud to fight armageddon, to destroy the beast and jail satan. and to resurrect his people.

«And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.»

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

and this is the end of the seventy weeks and the beginning of the millenium

what do you think of this interpretation?

[treeOflife]

we know that the devil will make a covenant with some men of Israel during the last week.
there will be a covenant between satan, the first beast and cabalistic jews.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"
daniel 9.27

and I think that they will build a new temple in jerusalem, because "the son of perdition" must have a temple in jerusalem to be able to "seat in the temple of God and proclaim himself god".

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

2 thessalonians 2.3

this is why they will kill the 2 witnesses in the middle of the week, to take the testimony of god out of the way and let the first beast of revelation reigns for the last part of the week.

I think that jerusalem and israel will have a jewish king during this last week. this king will be the false prophet of revelations, he will be the second beast that come from the earth in the book of revelations.

"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all."
daniel 11.36

this jewish king will exalt himself, he will not regard the god of his fathers, YHWH, the god of the bible.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."
revelations 13.12

this jewish king has 2 horns like a lamb, he surely comes from the tribes of dan and ephraim.
these 2 horns may be the tribes of dan and ephraim which are rejected by god from the 144000 elects of the book of revelations, because of their idolatry.
he speak like a dragon, because he works for the dragon, satan.
he causes the earth to worship the first beast, the roman catholic church.


"Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things."
daniel 11.37

the god of forces may be the roman catholic church. this word "forces", some translate it "fortified places", "strongholds". we know that the roman catholic church built lots of cathedrals and most technological discoveries comes from christendom (the beast empire).

now concerning the seals and trumpets and vials between the end of the 69 weeks and the beginning of the last week.

the first seal may be the conquering roman empire.

the second seal to the fourth trumpet may show the decaying of the roman empire, the division of the roman empire and eventually the end of the western roman empire, in 500 AD.

the fifth trumpet may be the invasion of islam, 700 AD.

the sixth trumpet may be the end of the eastern roman empire (bizantine empire) due to the islamic turkish attack and the fall of constantinople in 1550 AD

the seventh trumpet may be the rise of the beasts, the jesuit roman catholic church and and its alliance with satanic secret societies in 1800 AD ( roman catholic church retaliation to the protestant reformation).

[treeOflife]

now I will write about the last week.

first I would like to say that I studied my bible a lot these days and change my ideas about the millenium.
I know think that the millenium is a symbolic period from the fall of adam and eve till the second resurrection and judgement day.

I gave my reasons here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...92#post3140292

the last week or last seven years.

the last week is 2520 days.

for the first 220 days or seven months, the antichrist will build the temple. (2300 days before the end) (some say this apply to antiochus IV epiphanes -171 to -165)

"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
daniel 8.13

then 2 months and 15 days before the middle of the week, something will happen and the situation will become more dangerous for the followers of god. (1335 days before the end)

"Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
daniel 12.12

1 month before the middle of the week will the daily sacrifice be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate take place. (1290 days before the end)

"And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
daniel 12.11

then...

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter [therein], to take any thing out of his house:
And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."
mark 13.14

the devil and his followers, "the beast", will make war with the witnesses of god. and try to kill as many as would refuse the mark of the beast.
some will die to be purified.

"And [some] of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make [them] white, [even] to the time of the end: because [it is] yet for a time appointed."
daniel 11.35

but the 144 000 elects (symbolic number) will be protected in the wilderness (some call it rapture).

then in the middle of the week the beast will reign for 3 years and a half.

the seven cups will be poured and at the end of the 3 years and a half, the seventh trumpet will sound, the 144000 will be changed and the dead will be raised.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changedIn a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 corinthians 15.51

This is the best explanation I can find for the book of daniel and the book of revelations.
this theory imply that the first resurrection is a spiritual one (the bosom of abraham, ejiha and enoch taken away), while the second resurrection is a physical one (this is explained is the ukapologetic link).

I said in my last post that the seventh trumpets could be the rise of the beast, but I was wrong and I now change this, knowing that the seventh trumpet is the physical resurrection (1 corinthians 15.51). the rise of the beast must take place between the sixth and seventh trumpet.


well that's it. I said everything. If you have some ideas.
I'll hear them!

[Truth Files]

Response to the OP:

The entire 70th week decreed for a returned remnant part of Israel is still pending ....

All of the prophetic visions break at the end of the 69th week [about 33 A.D] ..... and resume with the beginning of the 70th week [same as the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment of the unbelieving nations [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17] and His pressuring of Israel [Jeremiah 30]

And the Lord speaks of this coming time of the end in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 ..... not about 70 A.D. .....all of the focus is about national Israel living in the land at the time of the coming 70th week ..... and not the church composed of both a few Israelites and mostly gentiles of the nations

When the fullness of the gentiles has been added to His church .... He will then judge the balance of the nations for intransigence and unbelief .... and pressure Israel at the same time [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12] ..... some of Israel will turn and believe during the 70th week decreed [Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant that He has with a believing remnant part of His nation [Jeremiah 31; Ezekiel 36] ..... the "other prince" and his followers will come to desecrate [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:24-27; 11:36-45; 12;7; Micah 5:5-6]

All 6 objectives will be reached for the remnant [the many] [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 31; Daniel 9:24; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

[Dogbyte]

Im still reading the above mentioned closed discussion, so please forgive me if im asking a question that will be answered as i read the thread to its current state.

What reasons are given, to warrant the assumption that the 70 weeks time frame is not concatenated, or sequential, ie. week 2 follows week 1, week 70 follows week 69 ect....

What reasons are given, to warrant the assumption that a 360 day lunar year is used to measure this time frame?

I believe both assumptions to be counter intuitive, if not illogical, in the given application of this prophecy with respect to Biblical evidence.

If this topic is found later in the thread, then just ignore this post.. i'll eventually get to it. =P

[Truth Files]

Dogbite,

I will post a cut from my website on a new thread that explains the 70 weeks of Years [70 x 7] and the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27

[Dogbyte]

Dogbite, I will post a cut from my website on a new thread that explains the 70 weeks of Years [70 x 7] and the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27

thanks i will look for your thread, and to clarify, the reason i asked was because i think these assumptions are where most beliefs about the 70 weeks, become "interpretations" rather than demonstrative evidence, reflecting more of a personal paradigm, then Bible truth. Thats not to say arbitrary methods can arise, to allow for demonstration, but that is why i question these assumptions.

I realize i may be in error also, i wont assume i know everything about everything, but given my own understanding of Dan 9, along with the Biblical account of the crucifixion week, the 70 week prophecy to me, is very demonstrative, but not because of arbitrary assumptions, but because of what scripture tells us flat out, not subjective interpretations. I believe AD 30 is the only year that exclusively satisfies all of what scripture tells us about Jesus' death. This date not only nails down when the 70 weeks can end, but when they can begin. I believe this date is more easily demonstrated, than all the other dates involved in this prophecy. Using only the Bible, and astronomical charts, we can verify (objectionably) lunar phases for that year, since Jesus is recorded observing feasts that are moon phase dependent in the Gospels. Only one year (AD30) surrounding the possible time frame that He died, can satisfy scripture.

I would think, almost every Christian should agree that Jesus confirmed His covenant to both Adam and Eve, and Abraham with his death (which occurred in the 70th week), which put an end to blood sacrifices and offerings (Col 2). These things all pointed to His death, which was their purpose. He fulfilled the blood oath to both man and Abraham; To mankind in a corporate sense, because of sin, and to Abraham on a individual level, because of the promise regarding Abraham's physical seed Israel. His death allowed Him to still carry out His promises to both mankind, AND Abraham, just as He always planned. i gotta go before i start rambling even more...

[Truth Files]

But, Daniel 9 is about His people of national Israel who rejected their Messiah and King .... not the church

Israel has rejected Jesus Christ, but this is going to change during the coming 70th week decreed for a remnant part of the nation

A remnant of the nation still needs to be brought under the Lord's covenant with His nation .... and this is going to happen during the coming 70th week

All 6 objectives listed in Daniel 9:24 will be reached for a believing remnant of Israel during the period

The Lord will confirm the covenant by executing the events of the coming 70th week [Jeremiah 31; Ezekiel 36; Daniel 9:24-27; Micah 5; Zechariah 13:8-9; 14; Romans 11:25-36]

His church of both a few Israelites and mostly gentiles of the nations is one thing, but His nation of Israel is another

Keep in mind that He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah [Revelation 5:5] ..... He is an Israelite by His humanity and still the Messiah and King of the nation

The thread of Israel as a separate ethnic nation runs from its beginnings and throughout the scriptures .... past and future

A returned remnant part is in the land today and surrounded by the nation's ancient enemies ..... this is necessary for them to experience the Lord's pressuring during the 70th week decreed [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14-17]

[EndtimesDeut32]

I can see a possibility of starting the 70th week with the prophesying of John the Baptist. But that would make John's declaration of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" as the mid-point of the 70th week. Interesting. However, the stuff about the stoning of Steven, and Paul preaching in Rome doesn't fit into the 70th week, at all.

The prophecies of the new covenant include both the exposure of the heart to the love of God manifest in Christ and his teachings AND the indwelling of the heart after the blood sacrifice on the earth to atone for all and any 'sin's that were due to ignorance and disbelief. This is from Deut 30; EZ 36 and Rom 10:5-9. The Covenant of Dan 9:27 and the 70th week begin at Jesus' baptism, with him being cut off in the midst of the week. The same amount of time is given for the disciples to testify within Jerusalem to balance the weight of the impact of Jesus himself and that of his disciples in 'the covenant'.