Let the Spirit Guide Your Heart

[franktalk]

...How not?

Jesus is like Highlander: there can be only one.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

When Jesus is described He has seven Spirits. Or that Father God has seven Spirits and Jesus somehow is associated with them. I tend to think that Jesus is many things and what we have been told is only part of the story.

[Raphael]

If something is not from God it will die its own death, your man Pete seems to be an example, the LDS not so much.

Uhhh, I hardly call the world's third oldest religion with well over a billion adherents today as having died a natural death.

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Nothing happens that is not in some way directed. So tell me is this third oldest religion somehow related to Ishmael?

Apart from the fact that the Qur'ran claims Ishmael was a prophet and that he was the ancestor of the Northern Arabs, I don't see what those verses have to do with Mohammed. Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arab, indeed the Iranians are of Arian descent, the Pakastani and Afghani are of Indian descent. The Egyptians are of Egyptian descent and the Africans are of...well African descent
Ishmael also was not the founder of Islam and so has nothing to do with the success or failure of a religion that started 600 years after Christianity. Yes his descendants are numerous, but those verses have nothing to do with a religion founded millennia after his death.

And I just realised I am wrong, it's not the worlds third oldest religion as Buddhism is older than Christianity so it's the worlds fourth or fifth oldest religion. (not sure when Hinduism started).

It is interesting to see an obvious agenda displayed in a post.

Indeed it is. Your agenda is a little surprising for a Christian though.

Do you think I do not know the Bible?

I never even hinted that you didn't know the Bible. But I do wonder what you think those verses have to do with Islam.

Did you think you could just slide this by?

Are you claiming that a promise made to Ishmael about his descendants applies to a religion founded over two and a half thousands years later by someone who may or may not have been a direct descendant?

Or could it be that you are the one who does not know God's Word?

Could it be that you're grasping at straws?

I said if it is not of God it will die. Did you understand me?

No you said "If something is not from God it will die its own death, your man Pete seems to be an example, the LDS not so much."
It was pretty clear that I was talking about Mohammed (JB had already identified him and made a joke about drawing pictures of him)

You were saying that the religion founded by Pete the Prophet, not being of God (I agree!), would die it's own death. And you said that the LDS was not an example of this.

Are you claiming that the Mormons are of God? Do you consider Joseph Smith to be a genuine Prophet of God? If so why are you not a Mormon? Because, in all seriousness, if he is a Prophet of God, and you did consider him to be one, and you did not follow his teachings, then you are going to be in a whole heap of trouble come Judgement.

It's an Either Or situation. Smith is either God's Prophet and we must follow his teachings, or he is a false prophet, an anti-christ if you will, and we must steadfastly stand against him and those who claim he is a prophet. The same goes for Mohammed.

Please Note: I am away all day tomorrow and will not be really have any opportunity to respond to anyone's posts until Thursday.

[franktalk]

Raphael ,

All of your arm waving will not change a thing. The descendants of Abraham formed three religions that were predicted in the Bible.

I count Abraham as my father but I doubt if I could trace back my ancestors to him. He is my father of faith, it is through his faith that the Jews, Christians, and Islam are here today.

My point still stands. If it is God's will to allow something to continue it will.

[Cow Poke]

Frank,
Simple "yes or no" question.
Is Joseph Smith a prophet of God?

[franktalk]

Frank,
Simple "yes or no" question.
Is Joseph Smith a prophet of God?

Don't know. Still doing research, and I am in no rush.

[Cow Poke]

Don't know. Still doing research, and I am in no rush.

Good enough!

[Vivian]

Raphael ,

All of your arm waving will not change a thing. The descendants of Abraham formed three religions that were predicted in the Bible.

I count Abraham as my father but I doubt if I could trace back my ancestors to him. He is my father of faith, it is through his faith that the Jews, Christians, and Islam are here today.

My point still stands. If it is God's will to allow something to continue it will.

Very insightful comment, franktalk. I have found that those who fight against what God has allowed to continue do so faithlessly. Certainly we each ought to follow our own sense of goodness, but to take it upon ourselves to save others, or to save the world, indicates a lack of faith.

Shalom!

Viv

[Sparko]

Very insightful comment, franktalk. I have found that those who fight against what God has allowed to continue do so faithlessly. Certainly we each ought to follow our own sense of goodness, but to take it upon ourselves to save others, or to save the world, indicates a lack of faith.

Shalom!

Viv

Like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Identity (KKK), Paganism, Hinduism, and even Atheism?

God has allowed all of these to continue. That doesn't make them right.

God has even let Satan continue for the time being.

[franktalk]

Raphael had a post in which he described lines of men and how the promise of God for Ishmael could not apply to Islam. I want to state that faith binds us more than blood. Please examine a post of mine in which I make that case.
--------
There are some who wish to replace Israel with the Church. This is replacement theology and many people believe this line of thinking. I for one do not. I will give my reasons for this but do not wish to argue these points. This is my opinion and each of us can follow our own heart and follow our own interpretation. Now I believe that what Paul wrote was inspired by God, every word of it. So when I say Paul wrote I actually mean the Spirit of God wrote through Paul. I do not believe that these words need to looked at through some ancient word filter. I think the Words are timeless just like God. The book of Romans was written for; Rom 1:7 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:” So for our purposes he is writing this for the Church.

Romans 11:2-24 (King James Version)

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here Paul is setting the stage for what follows. He is describing a time in which Israel was worshipping idols and killing it’s prophets. So faith in the true God fell to the side and the world for that moment held Israel. But God had a remnant of seven thousand which would be the seed for the future. The OT is full of times in which Israel followed God and other times in which they did not. But God always had a plan to save Israel. I believe this is true today and was true when Paul was writing the Book of Romans. The first sentence in this section tells us that God has not cast away Israel. These verses that follow in Romans are the details of that plan to save the jews (Israel).

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This does not say that works were ended for Israel. I think what it is saying is that some Jews came to Christ and through grace were saved and no longer lived in works. But those who were not elected were blinded and remain under works. They were blinded to the Gospel so they would not be held accountable. Those that through faith believed in the God of Abraham were still part of the olive tree. This tree of faith that has its roots with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The olive tree is faithful jews.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Here it continues with the theme that the Jews have been blocked from understanding. In verse 11 it asks the question. “Have they stumbled that they should fall?” And the answer is “God forbid” Then it continues describing the fall of the Jews and how that opens up an avenue for the Gentiles. So the Gospel was given to the Gentiles with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But verse 12 ends by saying that the Jews obtained a fulness because of the opportunity given to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Obviously Paul would prefer to have the Jews come to Christ and not be blinded, in verse 14 I think this is clear. Now in verse 15 it asks a question, it does not say the Jews are cast away from the tree of faith but cast away in the sense that they would not accept the Gospel. This nonbelief in the Gospel is what allowed the “reconciling of the world”. The second part of verse 15 asks what will be the result if they are brought back, the obvious answer that they are saved from spiritual death. But how can this be done? By their blindness. They are brought back to the tree of faith by their faith in God not the Gospel. When this tree is viewed as a tree of faith then the root, firstfruits, the lump, and branches are Holy. Some by the Gospel and some by faith in the God of Abraham. Remember that the root was there before Christ came to the earth as man.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This is a warning by God not to get to full of ourselves. We (Gentiles) are only here because God allowed us to be grafted in. Remember we are not a new tree. The root is still the faithful Fathers. It is the Jewish tree of faith that we are attached to. The fallen branches are those who do not believe in God or they worship idols. But God says that if they turn that around they will be reattached.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now Paul is announcing in clear terms that a mystery is being revealed so pay attention. He also tells us who will not get the message. Those who consider themselves wise and are full of conceits. The message is that the blindness on Israel will stay until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. So in verse 7 and again here in verse 25 the blindness is highlighted. I would suspect that this is important. Now when is the fulness of the Gentiles over? See Luke 21:24, it is over when Gentiles no longer walk around Jerusalem. This Obviously means that the blindness continues to this day.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

All Israel will be saved is a bold statement. I have to assume it has to do with the prior verses and the blindness cast on them. If they did not know better then they could be saved is the message. Obviously taking away their sins, which is Christ choice clears the way for all of them to be saved. This is not the Church, the reference to Jacob is clear and Israel is Israel.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So the blindness of the Gospel makes the Jews (they) disagree with “your” Church. But they are to be loved because of the special relationship He has with them. To make sure that there is no misunderstanding Paul says that the promises (gifts) and the “calling” will not be taken away.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

We obtained mercy because the Jews rejected the Gospel. Scripture tells us that we obtain mercy when we give it to others. It is not too much to ask that we give mercy to blind Jews concerning the Gospel. It may be that that act somehow in God’s mind allows the Jews to obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Verse 33 tells us that we will not know God’s wisdom concerning this matter. So I just accept it that all Jews will receive mercy.
-----

So the tree or group that Christians belong to is God's tree of faith with Abraham at the root. But this is just one tree described. How many other trees of faith are out there that are not the true faith. Now if that is true as I suspect then groups can form around those beliefs. I believe Islam is such a tree. I also believe that Islam has its roots in Ishmael.

Many people of this world have been deceived by the ruler of this world. But it is of this world. Only with looking past this world do we have a chance to see the light and truth of God. I was sad to see the response by Raphael which was a response which focused on this world and not the spirit. I thought it would be appropriate to dive into scripture a bit to find the true meaning of a group. It is not blood but what you believe that defines us in front of God.

[franktalk]

Like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Identity (KKK), Paganism, Hinduism, and even Atheism?

God has allowed all of these to continue. That doesn't make them right.

God has even let Satan continue for the time being.

And your point is? Hopefully something besides stating the obvious.

[Sparko]

And your point is? Hopefully something besides stating the obvious.

It should be obvious. You and others claimed that if a religion is false that God would not allow it to continue. The ones I listed prove otherwise.

[Vivian]

Like Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Identity (KKK), Paganism, Hinduism, and even Atheism?

God has allowed all of these to continue. That doesn't make them right.

God has even let Satan continue for the time being.

I trust God, Sparko, that he will make all things in heaven and on earth one, and this includes these differing religious thoughts and the souls who follow them.

And actually I do not consider this a case of them versus us - we got it right and they got it wrong. I consider this a case of everyone one of us seeing through the glass darkly.

In other words, no doubt we each have thoughts and ideas that are both more luminous and more dark than that of others. And we can help elevate one another by directing our friends and associates to more luminous thoughts and ideas. Presently I am engaged in a lesson that teaches how to turn darkness into light, how to turn the negative into the positive.

Take for example jealousy. At the heart of jealousy is the recognition of goodness in something or in someone. And if we reach into our jealous feelings and thoughts we will find that recognition and we can turn our jealous feelings and thoughts into prayers and thanksgiving, for the good things of this world, with which God has blessed us.

And so when we consider religions that we might think of as less than our own, walking in faith that God will make all things one as he has promised, we can take pause, and give thanks for the true Light in the world that inspires so many to seek God, finding what they can in accordance to their own capabilities.

And so I give thanks for all the thoughts words and deeds that come forth from man in his seeking of heaven, of something better, of God, of his true self, of his salvation, and know that God will use all these things for his purposes.

Let's look at the worst of your offering, the KKK. The KKK brought out into the open the hidden prejudices of humanity or at least a part of humanity, and by bringing it out into the open, we could look at it honestly, see it for what it is and correct it. Without the KKK, I imagine that prejudice would have remained a hidden cancer within our culture. And what is prejudice? Fear that we might lose something, that someone is going to take something away from us? And so at the heart of prejudice is a recognition of the goodness of God, of all that he has given us. And in understanding this we can turn our prejudice into thanksgiving and faith - that God will provide all that we need.

And so indeed the KKK served God's purposes, bringing about a very needed healing. Of course if we could have done it without such intervention - in the rise and exposure of the KKK, we would have spared humanity much suffering. But sometimes that is the only way we will change.

Shalom!

Viv

[jo7241974]

It should be obvious. You and others claimed that if a religion is false that God would not allow it to continue. The ones I listed prove otherwise.

You need to reread franktalk's posts. I don't see where he has never made that claim. IOW, and unless I am mistaken on this, you are establishing an incorrect conclusion to something he has already addressed.....just like when you ask me questions I have already answered.

God bless,

jo

[Cow Poke]

There are some who wish to replace Israel with the Church. This is replacement theology and many people believe this line of thinking. I for one do not.

Do you deny that early Mormon teachings set Mormons up as "the chosen people" and "outsiders" (non-members) were called goy and goyim and gentiles?

[Sparko]

You need to reread franktalk's posts. I don't see where he has never made that claim. IOW, and unless I am mistaken on this, you are establishing an incorrect conclusion to something he has already addressed.....just like when you ask me questions I have already answered.

God bless,

jo

First I said "franktalk and others" ok? so let's see...

If something is not from God it will die its own death, your man Pete seems to be an example, the LDS not so much.

I said if it is not of God it will die. Did you understand me?

I have found that those who fight against what God has allowed to continue do so faithlessly.