Let the Spirit Guide Your Heart

[Hamster]

I do not think that all homosexuals actually choose to be homosexual. I also believe this is one of the toughest subjects people deal with. It weighs heavily on my heart. Every single one of us needs to be loved. Thank heavens God is able to see what is in our hearts. Thank heavens God loves all of us.

Homosexuality (in general) isn't a choice, although there are possibly multiple reasons that people end up gay. There's compelling evidence that it has to do with the exposure to hormones in the womb. And it definitely is a heart-wrenching issue. If you happen to turn out homosexual you lose the big cosmic roulette game. There's a really high rate of suicide among young homosexual people who can't really face the dilemma that arises from the tension between their natural feelings, God, and society.

I'm homosexual and for the last couple years I've had a very difficult struggle. The reason I bring this up is because it's a clear demonstration that what our spirits and hearts respond to is not necessarily the truth or what God wants.

For example, I've fallen in love/become infatuated two or three times in the last few years. Heart walking on sunshine, longing to hold hands, all that cheesy valentine's day stuff. If I had taken the "listen to my heart" route I could very well have seen those feelings as confirmation from God that homosexual love (in the Cupid with arrows sense) was in accordance with God's will. But we can't trust our hearts to give us the whole picture.

[jo7241974]

Homosexuality (in general) isn't a choice, although there are possibly multiple reasons that people end up gay. There's compelling evidence that it has to do with the exposure to hormones in the womb. And it definitely is a heart-wrenching issue. If you happen to turn out homosexual you lose the big cosmic roulette game. There's a really high rate of suicide among young homosexual people who can't really face the dilemma that arises from the tension between their natural feelings, God, and society.

I'm homosexual and for the last couple years I've had a very difficult struggle. The reason I bring this up is because it's a clear demonstration that what our spirits and hearts respond to is not necessarily the truth or what God wants.

For example, I've fallen in love/become infatuated two or three times in the last few years. Heart walking on sunshine, longing to hold hands, all that cheesy valentine's day stuff. If I had taken the "listen to my heart" route I could very well have seen those feelings as confirmation from God that homosexual love (in the Cupid with arrows sense) was in accordance with God's will. But we can't trust our hearts to give us the whole picture.

One of my dearest friends was homosexual. This may sound strange, but he and I were like soul mates. He died in his 40's because he just did not want to live anymore. He did not commit suicide, and he had no disease; he had a broken spirit and heart born from a lifetime of struggling with his homosexuality.

Your honesty and the struggle you describe are indeed heart wrenching. God loves you, as you know. Your determination to do His will astounds me. I have no doubts you are laying up a treasure in heaven.

I agree with you that our hearts do not and cannot give us the whole picture. It is the heart, however, that can experience the peace and love that only the Holy Spirit can share with our spirits. Our spirits are within us and anything that teaches and or touches them, also teaches and touches our hearts and our minds. This is how our minds and understanding can be taught what words cannot express when being opened to the kingdom of God. I want you to know it was and still is the Holy Spirit that guides and directs my knowledge of God.

Much love,

jo

[spitndirt]

Are you speaking from experience?

With homosexuality...no. With *sin*.....yes.

Because I've been inside the head of at least one gay man, and am in contact with gay men at least once a week at meetings where we discuss feelings and thoughts.

Something that would never take place if they didn't know that their behavior was against nature. If homosexuality was not against nature Gays would not be seeking validation - especially from an institution that presumably speaks in God's stead. On the flip side - heterosexuals never seek validation for their heterosexuality. Why? Because it is an *inherently understood* natural behavior. The only time heterosexuals may seek validation is when they are in the midst of trying to justify the misuse of their heterosexuality.

Homosexuality is as natural to us as heterosexuality is to heterosexuals. Homosexuals fall in love, long for affection, want to start families, etc.

This is what they (you?) want everyone to believe. In reality they simply want their cake and eat it too. My question to them (you?) would be....why should their sin be glorified and mine not? You see, there was a time in my life when I longed for these inherently natural things(heterosexually speaking)....and yet I also wanted to party all the time and keep all my extra-marital sex partners - which I tried to convince myself was also natural even though I knew inside that it was not. I even tried to hold on to the best of both worlds for as long as I was able. In the end, though, it all fell to pieces despite my best efforts to keep it all together. It was not by the natural things that I crashed and burned, but by the unnatural things.

All of this comes from pure, loving feelings that arise deep in the heart. The idea that homosexuals know "deep down" that they are actually heterosexual is simply false. And many of them, listening to their feelings, believe that God has confirmed that homosexual pairing is holy and good -- based on the burning in their bosom.

Hamster.....nice try at the ole bait and switch routine. I have nowhere stated - or even implied - that homosexuals deep down inside know that they are really heterosexual (in a self-perception sense). What I am saying is that they know deep down inside that their homosexuality is *against nature*. Lets at least get on the same page here....

By the way, *biology itself* dictates what is natural in terms of sexuality.

[Hamster]

I have nowhere stated - or even implied - that homosexuals deep down inside know that they are really heterosexual (in a self-perception sense). What I am saying is that they know deep down inside that their homosexuality is *against nature*.

How can they know it's 'against nature' ("deep down") if it's what's always come natural to them?

And how can they not think they're actually heterosexual if deep down they believe their homosexuality is 'unnatural'? How is that a bait and switch?

Something that would never take place if they didn't know that their behavior was against nature.

Nonsense. There are therapy groups for women, where women relate their experiences and support each other. Does that mean they need validation for being female because they know it's wrong?

If homosexuality was not against nature Gays would not be seeking validation - especially from an institution that presumably speaks in God's stead

Gays (that are 'active') do not seek to join churches because they want to "validate" anything. They believe, with all their hearts, that they were born this way. It's part of their identity in the way that being male or female is part of someone's identity. What they are seeking is an end to alienation and what they feel is discrimination.

which I tried to convince myself was also natural even though I knew inside that it was not

Promiscuity and debauchery are very natural. So is violence and heresy and wrath. Human nature is fallen and all of these things come natural to us.

You can burn out on affairs and bacchanalias and other destructive optional activities, but is a homosexual that's been with his or her mate for 30 years in a loving, supportive relationship going to 'burn out' or know 'deep down' that something is wrong?

Also: for the purpose of this thread, I'm not saying that homosexuals are correct that it's okay to find same-sex mates. I am denying that homosexuals in general know "deep down" that their homosexuality is 'against nature.' Homosexuality is the natural state of a homosexual. In fact, the premise of this thread assumes most people here are going to disagree so I can get people to admit the deceptive power of feelings.

*biology itself* dictates what is natural in terms of sexuality.

Of course. And there's a biological basis for homosexuality. Whether it's neurological, hormonal, genetic, or a combination of a multitude of factors.

[OtherCheek]

How can they know it's 'against nature' ("deep down") if it's what's always come natural to them?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

Hamster, Do you believe in God?

Do you believe God created man and woman?

Your profile says you are Christian, so is it safe to assume that you DO believe in these things?

Do you believe God commanded the first man and woman to multiply and replenish the earth? And do you think God created you to be an exception to that commandment?

[Hamster]

Hamster, Do you believe in God?

Do you believe God created man and woman?

Do you believe God commanded man and woman to multiply and replenish the earth?

Of course, but not everyone is equipped to do that. For example, there are some that are 'eunuchs since birth.' Normally people are born with the natural ability to find an opposite sex partner and start a family. But some people aren't due to natural restraints.

An example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETIxoQGVjos

[OtherCheek]

Of course, but not everyone is equipped to do that. For example, there are some that are 'eunuchs since birth.' Normally people are born with the natural ability to find an opposite sex partner and start a family. But some people aren't due to natural restraints.

An example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETIxoQGVjos

OK thanks. I watched that. Very interesting.

Do you believe that gender differentiation will exist in the resurrection?

[Hamster]

OK thanks. I watched that. Very interesting.

Do you believe that gender differentiation will exist in the resurrection?

I believe that maleness and femaleness are real things that will exist after the resurrection, although they might be different then how they appear now. I don't think people will have sex or have children but I think there will be other forms of intimacy that sex is just a reflection of.

As for people caught in the middle, be it from homosexuality, hermaphroditism, or being transgender.. I only have speculations. Personally I wouldn't mind being restored to the prepubescent state I had when I was a child. But scripture just doesn't get into the specific details about how God is going to restore and harmonize his creation.

[spitndirt]

Hello Hamster,

How can they know it's 'against nature' ("deep down") if it's what's always come natural to them?

Romans 2:18-27. Yeah....you're probably very familiar with these scriptures, but still.

And how can they not think they're actually heterosexual if deep down they believe their homosexuality is 'unnatural'? How is that a bait and switch?

It's bait and switch (now obviously unintended) because my point was *against nature* which is not to say *actually heterosexual*. I completely agree that homosexuals are homosexual. But I also assert that homosexuality is *against nature* and that this knowledge hasn't escaped them. Two different and unrelated arguments.

Nonsense. There are therapy groups for women, where women relate their experiences and support each other. Does that mean they need validation for being female because they know it's wrong?

Hamster. Here is a demonstration of validation through baseless justification. Gay is not a gender......female is. Surely this is obvious to all - even to you. Try steppin' outside the bubble for a moment and objectively look in. Just a suggestion....

Gays (that are 'active') do not seek to join churches because they want to "validate" anything. They believe, with all their hearts, that they were born this way.

A couple of things. First an organizational argument. A church that retains or receives people who are *actively* gay (which would smack of unrepentance) are not churches of God. It is written to the Church of God that they should "...expel the immoral brother...". Yeah....a seemingly barbaric idea in our day, I know. However, note that the scripture does not withdraw the title *brother*. The same scripture goes on to explain the *why* behind the expulsion. It is written "...deliver the man over to Satan for the destruction of *the flesh*, that *the spirit* may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus...". It is for the immoral brother's *salvation* that he is to be expelled and handed over. It is further written "...know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump...". It is also for the preservation of the Church that the immoral brother is expelled. 1Corinthians 5

It's part of their identity in the way that being male or female is part of someone's identity.

No....it's not. Gender and sexual preference are completely unrelated things. One is biology relative to specific sexual genitalia...the other, psychology relative to specific sexual compulsions.

What they are seeking is an end to alienation and what they feel is discrimination.

Uhhh....validation? Hamster. This will sound cruel to you but it is not meant to be. If a homosexual is to obtain salvation it will likely be through a form of alienation and discrimination. Not necessarily from a cultural standpoint, but necessarily from the standpoint of God's true Church.

On a personal note: I neither hate you nor do I hate anyone struggling with issues of sexual immorality. Further, I make no *personal* judgments relative to that struggle. To do so would be to forget my own past sexual immorality as well as the struggles that went with it.

Promiscuity and debauchery are very natural. So is violence and heresy and wrath. Human nature is fallen and all of these things come natural to us.

Good point Hamster. Time for a clarification of terms. When I say *against nature* it must be taken thus - *nature as God has made it*. It is true that by nature we are sinful/unclean and that acting out according to that nature is....well, natural. However, our fallen nature does not negate the presence of God and of the true nature of things as He intended it to be. God has made the nature of things clear so that all will be without excuse.

You can burn out on affairs and bacchanalias and other destructive optional activities, but is a homosexual that's been with his or her mate for 30 years in a loving, supportive relationship going to 'burn out' or know 'deep down' that something is wrong?

Another good point, my friend. Even so, just because one learns to manage sin it is still sin and will still lead to death. Besides, you and I both know that the example you offer here would be the exception and not the rule.

Also: for the purpose of this thread, I'm not saying that homosexuals are correct that it's okay to find same-sex mates. I am denying that homosexuals in general know "deep down" that their homosexuality is 'against nature.' Homosexuality is the natural state of a homosexual. In fact, the premise of this thread assumes most people here are going to disagree so I can get people to admit the deceptive power of feelings.

Perhaps, then, we are left to agree to disagree over the one point. As to your assertion that feelings can be deceptive? ....totally agree.

Of course. And there's a biological basis for homosexuality. Whether it's neurological, hormonal, genetic, or a combination of a multitude of factors.

Actually, genitalia = the determining factor.

Later....

[spitndirt]

CORRECTION

I meant Romans 1:18-27 at the beginning of the above post.

My bad......

[OtherCheek]

I believe that maleness and femaleness are real things that will exist after the resurrection, although they might be different then how they appear now. I don't think people will have sex or have children but I think there will be other forms of intimacy that sex is just a reflection of.

As for people caught in the middle, be it from homosexuality, hermaphroditism, or being transgender.. I only have speculations. Personally I wouldn't mind being restored to the prepubescent state I had when I was a child. But scripture just doesn't get into the specific details about how God is going to restore and harmonize his creation.

Thanks, so in the video you linked to, do you think that God created the spirit of this woman to have AIS, or do you think AIS is more a reflection of circumstances related to the temporal flesh, and the procreative process?

[Hamster]

Gay is not a gender......female is

I didn't suggest that gay was a gender. I used a counter-example to show that group therapies as the kind I described are not proof that gays are seeking 'validation' for their sin (since most homosexuals don't even believe that homosexual behavior is a sin at all).

Gender and sexual preference are completely unrelated things. One is biology relative to specific sexual genitalia...the other, psychology

Homosexuality has been shown to be connected to hormones and brain chemistry. Brain structure in homosexual males, for example, is generally different than that of heterosexual males. Homosexual males respond to pheromones differently. That isn't to say that all people are "biologically" homosexual with no psychological component, but most seem to be.

genitalia = the determining factor

Genitalia doesn't really decide anything if the programming in the brain is different. Genitalia is specialized tissue that people use to express the feelings and desires that are generated in their brains. Not to get too gruesome, but a man that loses his genitalia will still remain either heterosexual or homosexual.

The same goes with maleness and femaleness. There are cases where a baby was born with ambiguous genitalia. The genitalia had male and female features. The doctors decided to remove the male part and restructure it to appear female.

That baby grew up always believing it was female. It's parents never told him/her about the details of their birth. However, that child still grew up with a sense of "Wrongness" about being a girl. S/he behaved more like a boy despite what s/he looked like and what the parents were raising him/her to believe. This person didn't find out until much later in life that they were actually born with a penis that had been removed. "She" always thought that she was a tomboy lesbian. But it turns out "she" just had a boy's brain, regardless of her ambiguous genitalia. This actually happened to quite a few babies in the mid to late 20th century.

Gender, sexual identity, etc. is all generated up in the gray matter.

[Hamster]

Thanks, so in the video you linked to, do you think that God created the spirit of this woman to have AIS, or do you think AIS is more a reflection of circumstances related to the temporal flesh, and the procreative process?

I am not really sure. I suspect that she has a female spirit but something went wrong in the womb during her fetal development

[OtherCheek]

I am not really sure. I suspect that she has a female spirit but something went wrong in the womb during her fetal development

Thanks, Hamster.

That is my thought as well. Which leads me to also think that she is not meant to have AIS in the resurrection.

Do you think God creates spirits to be homosexual, or do you think this tendency is something that happens in the physical development after God creates the spirit?

[Vivian]

Homosexuality (in general) isn't a choice, although there are possibly multiple reasons that people end up gay. There's compelling evidence that it has to do with the exposure to hormones in the womb. And it definitely is a heart-wrenching issue. If you happen to turn out homosexual you lose the big cosmic roulette game. There's a really high rate of suicide among young homosexual people who can't really face the dilemma that arises from the tension between their natural feelings, God, and society.

I'm homosexual and for the last couple years I've had a very difficult struggle. The reason I bring this up is because it's a clear demonstration that what our spirits and hearts respond to is not necessarily the truth or what God wants.

For example, I've fallen in love/become infatuated two or three times in the last few years. Heart walking on sunshine, longing to hold hands, all that cheesy valentine's day stuff. If I had taken the "listen to my heart" route I could very well have seen those feelings as confirmation from God that homosexual love (in the Cupid with arrows sense) was in accordance with God's will. But we can't trust our hearts to give us the whole picture.

My heart goes out to you Hamster. I am so very sorry that you are caught in this struggle, as are many among us.

God has never said that loving someone of the same sex is wrong. Distorted revelation recorded in the Old Testament - influenced by the dominions and principalities of evil, cultural bias, and the presence of a perverted homosexual practice (different than a loving homosexual committed relationship) in Biblical times, led to such comments about homosexuality in scripture.

Anything we do selfishly - for our selves alone - is of the evil inclination and a sin. Anything we do loving others as though they are ourselves is of the godly inclination, and righteous.

And so the desire for money not for ourselves alone but to benefit others, is righteous.

The desire for money for ourselves alone is sin, greed.

The desire for a person of the opposite sex, for our personal pleasure and benefit alone is a sin.

The desire for a person of the opposite sex, to bring goodness to them, and to all of humanity, is righteousness.

The desire for a person of the same sex, for our personal pleasure and benefit alone is a sin.

The desire for a person of the same sex, to bring goodness to them, and to all of humanity, is righteousness.

It is not the act that makes something a sin, but the intent of the heart. If the act is self serving it is a sin. If the act is other or all serving, it is righteousness.

You may not believe me, but I know that some souls choose to come into this world as homosexuals for the benefit of others - they being uniquely qualified to be special vehicles for God's love in this world, for the benefit of all.

Whether homosexual or heterosexual does not matter, for souls are neither male nor female. Such is of the dust of this world, and as dust of this world, can be used for good or for evil, depending on the intent of the heart.

I wish you well, Hamster, and I pray that you receive comfort and guidance directly from our loving God regarding how you were uniquely created to be a vehicle for His love in this world.

Shalom.

Viv