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New solar system near by with 7 planets, three habitable.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I have heard scientists say that having such a large moon is essential for life having developed on Earth, and surviving.
    I've heard that too, but never had it explained. Have you seen the reason this is the case spelled out?

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    All of these planets are tidally locked, meaning they probably dont have a magnetic field, and no moons have been found. not to mention one side would always face the sun and be burning up while the other side would be frozen.
    So, the first is not correct. The magnetic field is dependent upon a molten core, which is tidal locking does not affect. Io, for example, is tidally locked with Jupiter, but there's evidence its core is molten. These planets are packed so closely together that they experience similar tidal forces to Jupiter's moons, and so probably maintain molten cores as well.

    As for facing only one side to their host star, that's also less of a problem than you might think. On earth, different temperature zones (equatorial, tropics, temperate, etc) are arranged in stripes at distances from the equator. On a tidally locked planet, they'd still exist, but as concentric rings, much like a target, with the bulls-eye facing the star. So you'd get the same diversity of zones, they'd just be arranged differently.

    None of that is to take away from your larger point - right now, we're only just moving the issue of "is there life elsewhere?" out of rampant speculation and into semi-informed speculation. But i'm excited to see how much more informed it gets over the next few decades.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      I've heard that too, but never had it explained. Have you seen the reason this is the case spelled out?
      IIRC it has to do with the presence of tides to stir things up in the oceans.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #18
        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
        I've heard that too, but never had it explained. Have you seen the reason this is the case spelled out?
        protecting the planet from meteors and debris, helping to move the oceans around with tides which helps stabilize and spread out heat on the earth. and importantly it stabilizes our rotation, allowing us to have consistent weather. without it the earth would wobble and keep going into ice ages and such.

        So, the first is not correct. The magnetic field is dependent upon a molten core, which is tidal locking does not affect. Io, for example, is tidally locked with Jupiter, but there's evidence its core is molten. These planets are packed so closely together that they experience similar tidal forces to Jupiter's moons, and so probably maintain molten cores as well.
        actually the rotation of the iron core creates electrical currents which create magnetic fields. so if the planet were tidally locked it would not have a rotating core and would have a very weak or no magnetic field. if Io has a magnetic field it is because it's core is moving through Jupiter's. that will generate some magnetic fields.

        As for facing only one side to their host star, that's also less of a problem than you might think. On earth, different temperature zones (equatorial, tropics, temperate, etc) are arranged in stripes at distances from the equator. On a tidally locked planet, they'd still exist, but as concentric rings, much like a target, with the bulls-eye facing the star. So you'd get the same diversity of zones, they'd just be arranged differently
        . ok but then that is just makes it more unlikely that life is there. more obstacles.
        Last edited by Sparko; 02-23-2017, 11:30 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          protecting the planet from meteors and debris, helping to move the oceans around with tides which helps stabilize and spread out heat on the earth. and importantly it stabilizes our rotation, allowing us to have consistent weather. without it the earth would wobble and keep going into ice ages and such.
          With the stable ecological zones described in my last post, you wouldn't need a moon. I'm not sure how much difference the moon makes to bombardment in the present-day solar system, and it would probably make less a difference when multiple planets are able to clear out orbiting debris. And the other planets should provide tides in a tightly packed system like this.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          actually the rotation of the iron core creates electrical currents which create magnetic fields. so if the planet were tidally locked it would not have a rotating core and would have a very weak or no magnetic field. if Io has a magnetic field it is because it's core is moving through Jupiter's. that will generate some magnetic fields.
          Apparently, that's not the case:
          https://astronomynow.com/2015/09/30/...d-small-stars/

          Though i don't know how widely accepted the research is.

          Obviously, it would still rely on the presence of lots of iron or equivalent elements in the planet.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          ok but then that is just makes it more unlikely that life is there. more obstacles.
          How do you figure that makes it more unlikely? You get stable ecological regions, just as you do on earth - they're just arranged differently.

          I'm not trying to argue that life's likely on these places - we know far too little about them or about the formation of life, at this point. But if our model environment for life is earth, the evidence seems to suggest that these places could harbor earth-like environments, despite their significant differences.

          (Neat bit of trivia: this type of tidally locked planet has been called an "eyeball earth", because it's white (frozen) on the back and dark (liquid water) in the area facing the star.)
          "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            With the stable ecological zones described in my last post, you wouldn't need a moon. I'm not sure how much difference the moon makes to bombardment in the present-day solar system, and it would probably make less a difference when multiple planets are able to clear out orbiting debris. And the other planets should provide tides in a tightly packed system like this.


            Apparently, that's not the case:
            https://astronomynow.com/2015/09/30/...d-small-stars/

            Though i don't know how widely accepted the research is.

            Obviously, it would still rely on the presence of lots of iron or equivalent elements in the planet.


            How do you figure that makes it more unlikely? You get stable ecological regions, just as you do on earth - they're just arranged differently.

            I'm not trying to argue that life's likely on these places - we know far too little about them or about the formation of life, at this point. But if our model environment for life is earth, the evidence seems to suggest that these places could harbor earth-like environments, despite their significant differences.

            (Neat bit of trivia: this type of tidally locked planet has been called an "eyeball earth", because it's white (frozen) on the back and dark (liquid water) in the area facing the star.)
            basically because for example lets say it is one in a billion that a normal rocky planet has life, a nonrotating planet has that much less area available for life to develop in those small bands. thus less chance of life developing than a regular rotating planet.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              basically because for example lets say it is one in a billion that a normal rocky planet has life, a nonrotating planet has that much less area available for life to develop in those small bands. thus less chance of life developing than a regular rotating planet.
              For a non-rotating planet that's the same size as earth, those bands are 50% the size of earth's. (Assuming roughly the same insolation as earth and an atmosphere with a circulation that distributes temperatures reasonably efficiently, etc. etc. - basically, assuming it's earth-like to start with and an appropriate distance from the star.)
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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              • #22
                Originally posted by roy View Post
                [pedant mode]
                who called it trappist-1 before nasa discovered it, and how did nasa know?
                [/pedant mode]

                also commenting that they don't think life may have evolved there, they only think earth-like life may be possible there.
                fify
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  The possibility of life is only possible through the natural processes of abiogenesis and evolution.
                  For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                  Does that mean your god could not spontaneously create life in a distant planet even if he saw fit to do so?









                  ...Just being nitpicky here
                  We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                  - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                  In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                  Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                    For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                    Does that mean your god could not spontaneously create life in a distant planet even if he saw fit to do so?









                    ...Just being nitpicky here
                    No problem, I believe Natural Laws and the nature of our physical existence is simply Creation from the human perspective as determined from the evolving knowledge of science. Yes, life would arise naturally through abiogenesis and evolve on other suitable worlds as it did in ours. No magic wands waved, nothng spontaneous about it, just simply the natural way things work.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      No problem, I believe Natural Laws and the nature of our physical existence is simply Creation from the human perspective as determined from the evolving knowledge of science. Yes, life would arise naturally through abiogenesis and evolve on other suitable worlds as it did in ours. No magic wands waved, nothng spontaneous about it, just simply the natural way things work.
                      So when you say," . . . The possibility of life is only possible through the natural processes of abiogenesis and evolution" you are making a religious statement. If not let us see some evidence.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        the key word is "speculated."
                        “Educated guesses” is perhaps more accurate.

                        the evidence so far is that every planet and moon we have discovered so far is unique and not like any other. To me that indicates that the conditions for life might be unique also. or VERY rare. And the conditions for intelligent life is orders of magnitude rarer than that.
                        The essential condition is the existence of water and recent observations by planetary probes and telescopes have shown that water is common throughout our solar system and our own galaxy. And, given that our galaxy contains c. 400 billion stars (i.e. suns) and that many of them have orbiting planets it’s, probable that life has evolved on some of them. And given the 200 billion + galaxies (over and above our own galaxy)...each with around the same number of stars...it’s highly unlikely that we’re unique on the basis of sheer numbers alone.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          “Educated guesses” is perhaps more accurate.
                          Actually, it's not.
                          The essential condition is the existence of water and recent observations by planetary probes and telescopes have shown that water is common throughout our solar system and our own galaxy.
                          This is another example of speculation. The existence of water is at best an essential condition for the generation of carbon-based life forms.
                          And, given that our galaxy contains c. 400 billion stars (i.e. suns) and that many of them have orbiting planets it’s, probable that life has evolved on some of them. And given the 200 billion + galaxies (over and above our own galaxy)...each with around the same number of stars...it’s highly unlikely that we’re unique on the basis of sheer numbers alone.
                          Incorrect. So far, we have one positive example - and we still don't know why or how it came to be; only that it is. With what we know, any attempt at calculating probability is no more than speculation, no matter how fancy you make the equations.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            No problem, I believe Natural Laws and the nature of our physical existence is simply Creation from the human perspective as determined from the evolving knowledge of science. Yes, life would arise naturally through abiogenesis and evolve on other suitable worlds as it did in ours. No magic wands waved, nothng spontaneous about it, just simply the natural way things work.
                            I understand that. I'm mostly TE myself. My question was different.

                            Can the Baha'i god perform miracles if he chooses to? And a different question, does he / has he, that you know of?

                            And a third question, different in nature from the previous two: the answers you give me, are they common among the Baha'i, or are they your personal convictions as distinguished from what an "average Baha'i" would answer? It is my understanding that you have lived in this religion for quite some time, so hopefully you have become self-aware enough in it to know the places where you stand with the majority of your religion, and the places where you don't. I think it's important to know whether I'm learning about you or about you and most other Baha'i, if you know that answer.
                            Last edited by Bisto; 02-23-2017, 10:35 PM.
                            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                            Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Actually, it's not.
                              Actually it is. It’s a guess grounded in existing knowledge, in short an educated guess.

                              This is another example of speculation. The existence of water is at best an essential condition for the generation of carbon-based life forms.
                              It’s not speculation given that we are carbon-based and we certainly exist. We know the presence of liquid water was an essential component in our evolution. And it’s established that liquid water is common throughout our own solar system and galaxy, hence life elsewhere is a likely concomitant fact.

                              There may be other possible types of biochemistry as well, e.g. silicon has been much discussed as an alternative to carbon in some environments...but this is speculation.

                              Incorrect. So far, we have one positive example - and we still don't know why or how it came to be; only that it is. With what we know, any attempt at calculating probability is no more than speculation, no matter how fancy you make the equations.
                              Yes “so far”. But perhaps the planned 2020 Mars Rover expedition will be successful in its search for signs of past microbial life. This would be conclusive evidence of life elsewhere and then you’ll have to drop your mantra of “it’s all speculation”.

                              Given the incomprehensibly vast numbers of potentially habitable planets in the universe the probability is that life does exist elsewhere. There’s no reason why Earth would be unique in this regard.
                              Last edited by Tassman; 02-23-2017, 10:59 PM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                So when you say," . . . The possibility of life is only possible through the natural processes of abiogenesis and evolution" you are making a religious statement. If not let us see some evidence.
                                Not a religious state, but yes the Baha'i view is in harmony with the conclusions of science based on objective verifiable evidence.

                                We have no other objective evidence for alternative explanations for the origins and evolution of life than the knowledge of present life sciences. If you can provide any other objective evidence for an alternative I am willing to consider it.

                                You are probably objecting to the use of 'only possible,' yes it may be misleading word choice. A better wording may be, '. . . the only known possible way is. . . .'
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-24-2017, 08:21 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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