Mature Thread - Christian Sexuality - Must be 18 to post

[Dee Dee Warren]

On occasion, my one-sock/one-foot method of dressing causes comment. People I know somehow seem to think that the only possible pairings involve socks that ... you know ... match. I'm always forced to state the obvious. Of course it's a pair, because I've got another pair just like it at home.

Heterosoxual phobic. Shameful. I too am persecuted in this manner.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Actually Arsenios, I wasn't,

Which neatly proves to all atheists that there IS a God...

but he would have been thrilled if I were. He likes my style. Makes him feel like a teenager again to be with someone so unself-conscious of what the "adult" world judges on with stupid things like style sense.

Well, I should think that you already know that it is often the very things that initially attract us to someone that later bug us the most about them...

I am reminded of the guy who fell for, loved, proposed to and married this totally sexy and hot looking woman... And of course... I think you know the REST of the story... He did NOT like how hot and sexy she looked AFTER the marriage [obsessive jealousy and all the rest...]

I am not saying your sense of style is stupid.

I wear only black, legs and arms covered always... Hair down to my belt and a beard on my chest, with a bronze cross on a cord around my neck... That's my WORK outfit... I am most always working... I have a lot of fun with my customers,,,

I love you

I know...
It's just a weakness you have...
For elderly religious types with cute dimples...

I would never do that.

I wouldn't mind if it was from YOU...

I am saying that that the way the world stares and judges is stupid,

Well DAAAaaaggghhhhhhh!

Why do you think I didn't like what I understood to be Christians in my atheist days?

They were a bunch of judgmental hippocrites trying to control everyone ELSE...

and I am sooo glad I have the gift of not caring.

Caring is good... I know you care...

For myself, I have pretty much gotten past the need for flaunting my lack of controllability by other people's staring and judging... By forsaking the world, one frees up much for the glory of God...

Arsenios

[Zero Tolerance]

Thank you, Dee Dee, for your trust on this issue. Especially on this issue, which is delicate, at best.

Beyond noting that Paul commands the heterosexual monogamy that you note, and also that he acknowledges that there will be times when married couples will refrain from sexual activity (and even that with the consent of the partner, see 1 Cor 7:1-5), there are no instructions regarding any specific practices that should not be indulged in. But note something in the passage cited:

1 Cor 7:4
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Paul does not say that the body of the partner belongs to the spouse--it belongs to the person, and also to the spouse.

In Christian marriage, sexuality is not a blank submission to the husband's (or wife's) needs, but a sharing between the partners. Those acts that both partners enjoy are certainly permitted, but there should be no such thing as "Lie back and think of England"--if one partner does not wish to participate in a sexual act, he or she is not required to.

ETA: Beyond that, I'm not sure it is profitable to delve too much into specifics, especially in public. I could almost imagine Paul (according to tradition and the Bible, never married) blushing at the thought. These are decisions that are between the couple, and are not subject to the approbation of the crowd--more importantly, even if Christians have the license to enjoy their spouse's body within the marriage, they should not allow their liberty to cause a stumbling block for other Christian couples, or especially for Christians who are not married.

I see why Dee Dee gave you permission to post. I admire your Biblical discernment despite your religious affiliation. I wish that my fellow Christians would display this kind of wisdom on a more frequent basis rather than bicker over anal/oral sex.

I like the tl;dr version of this post: "If you ain't married to the (husband/wife), it ain't none of your business!"

Ephesians 5:31-32:

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

LOL! I totally agree that Paul is blushing here. Imagine having to stay sexually pure in body, mind, and spirit, then having the burden to discuss what would be considered carnal. Paul was the original Iron Man.

[tomsawyer25]

Who is bickering? We are having a discussion. You may see this discussion as a stumbling block, but I see it as a stumbling block to suggest that our life in Yeshua is something less than a walk towards holiness or that there are domains in our lives where we should not be led by God. The act may not be discussed in any detail in scripture, but the principals involved are. Many people view it a an extremely minor question, yet it does tie in with some very major ones, such as what our sexuality is (an itch to be scratched?) and how we treat others. We should care very much to do the right thing.

Shalom,

Tom

I see why Dee Dee gave you permission to post. I admire your Biblical discernment despite your religious affiliation. I wish that my fellow Christians would display this kind of wisdom on a more frequent basis rather than bicker over anal/oral sex.

I like the tl;dr version of this post: "If you ain't married to the (husband/wife), it ain't none of your business!"

Ephesians 5:31-32:

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

LOL! I totally agree that Paul is blushing here. Imagine having to stay sexually pure in body, mind, and spirit, then having the burden to discuss what would be considered carnal. Paul was the original Iron Man.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

For a Christian perspective on this whole topic, the following [free, mind you] lectures, and indeed the entire site, is very valuable...

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/f...lycross06.aspx

The Christian Marriage and Family: Four Audio Lectures by Fr. Josiah Trenham

Lecture 1: "Old Creation and New Creation: How the Gospel forms Monks and Married People"

Pre-Lecture 2 Q & A

Lecture 2: "The Sexual Revolution and the Church: The Purposes of Human Sexuality"

Lecture 3: "Procreation and Contraception"

Lecture 3 Q & A

Lecture 4: "How to Choose a Spouse"

This idea, that marriage is an arena in which we are to porneirify our lusts with our spouses, and then dance off into the sunset with a smiling god blessing our porneiric deeds, is simply NOT taught in Christianity...

What is being overlooked in the name of the "privacy" of the marriage bed is its SANCTITY...
IF you do not regard marriage as a Sacrament, a Mystery, ordained by God and blessed by Him, then you will have a carnal marriage, and turning it into a porn palace once the bedroom doors close is not only appropriate, but is a really good first step toward the opening those very same doors for those less inhibited than you, or for yourself once the thrill of the newness of the unfamiliar sensations passes and we start looking for some fresh "new-ness-es"...

Christians are not to be led around by their sensations having a ring through their noetic noses... And not even in the name of "helping one another through some psychological hang-up." The idea that enacting such things "helps" is not a Christian idea, and in fact, the only thing helped by such enactment is what we all love to hate because we love it: MORE...

So if you go to the site, and listen to the lectures, be ready for a radically Christian perspective...
It has been so for some 2000 years now...
And counting...

It is, however, new for most here...

Arsenios

[Little Shepherd]

I thought you'd been asked not to post in this thread anymore. But since you did, I should point out that you're begging the question. Nobody here is in favor of "porneirifying" the marriage bed. In fact, this thread was started in order to discuss the sexual practices(if any) that do and do not, within the context of a Christian marriage, do just that. You seem to be under the impression that any focus on pleasure is wrong in and of itself, which is just absurd. Song of Solomon must make you literally writhe in disgust if that's the case.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I thought you'd been asked not to post in this thread anymore.

I don't think so...

But if Dee Dee wants me out of this thread, or the mods or staff, I can sure not post here...

Have I forgotten?

I hope you go to the online lectures - I would like to hear your response to them...

Arsenios

[Rushing Jaws]

Well that's rather off topic - but needless to say, once you deliberately throw away any theological source that you deem "bad" and put it in an appendix to be ignored, it's little wonder you find no theological objections to the things you approve of!

## It's taken as a trustworthy guide to Christian ethics - but is it any such thing ? That is the problem. It's a fact, not a myth, that the Bible talks about a lot of issues that don't arise to today (or not for most people), while nothing about many matters that are part of modern life. It seems very irresponsible to treat the Bible, which is not one book but an ancient & foreign body of books of miscellaneous character, as though it were the final word on all ethical issues.

Responsible Christian ethics has to take the limitations of the Bible seriously. This is not the same as saying it has nothing to contribute to the formation of moral judgements by Christians, but the idea that it is the final word ignores Christ, Who is, surely, slightly more important. If, of course, Christian ethics is confined to members of those Protestant churches who regard the Bible as the only or the final source in ethics, fine - but most Christians are not Protestants. So they cannot be expected to believe about the Bible what Protestants do. And this is not a Protestants-only thread.

Your reply would be justified, if one were asking for no moral principles & sheer chaos. One isn't. Reducing the Bible to the relatively unimportant thing it is, allows one to avoid Bibliolatry & to be reminded that Christian faith is in Christ - not in the Bible. Christianity is not Biblianity. "O foolish Fundamentalists, was the Bible crucified for you ?" Maybe somebody should ask them. The vast majority of Christians are not Fundamentalists - Christ is Lord, not Deuteronomy or Galatians

[Dee Dee Warren]

That's one of the most asinine things I have ever read. And totally unhelpful, for me, the thread starter. The answers I am seeking are from those who use the Bible as their authority, and I am not interested in your agenda.

[disciple100]

## It's taken as a trustworthy guide to Christian ethics - but is it any such thing ? That is the problem. It's a fact, not a myth, that the Bible talks about a lot of issues that don't arise to today (or not for most people), while nothing about many matters that are part of modern life. It seems very irresponsible to treat the Bible, which is not one book but an ancient & foreign body of books of miscellaneous character, as though it were the final word on all ethical issues.

Responsible Christian ethics has to take the limitations of the Bible seriously. This is not the same as saying it has nothing to contribute to the formation of moral judgements by Christians, but the idea that it is the final word ignores Christ, Who is, surely, slightly more important. If, of course, Christian ethics is confined to members of those Protestant churches who regard the Bible as the only or the final source in ethics, fine - but most Christians are not Protestants. So they cannot be expected to believe about the Bible what Protestants do. And this is not a Protestants-only thread.

Your reply would be justified, if one were asking for no moral principles & sheer chaos. One isn't. Reducing the Bible to the relatively unimportant thing it is, allows one to avoid Bibliolatry & to be reminded that Christian faith is in Christ - not in the Bible. Christianity is not Biblianity. "O foolish Fundamentalists, was the Bible crucified for you ?" Maybe somebody should ask them. The vast majority of Christians are not Fundamentalists - Christ is Lord, not Deuteronomy or Galatians

And so it would only be appropriate for this to be posted in response to you:

Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets

5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Rushing Jaws]

And so it would only be appropriate for this to be posted in response to you:

Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets

5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. 5:19 So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

## That proves too much. Judged by the Bible of the time (= more or less, the OT - not the NT), Jesus is exactly what his theologians called Him: a liar, a seducer of the people, etc. "THere is death in [the OT]", & only if one gets away from it is the Christian faith in Him justified, which came, not by the deadening books of the OT, but by Christ the Gift of His Father & His Holy Spirit. "Was [the Bible] crucified for you ?" You know the answer as well as I do. When the Bible, in any of its parts, collides with Christ, it deserves only to be shattered.

Those who want to be ruled by the OT, must keep the whole Law - not just the three or four gay-bashing bits that occasionally come in useful, but the whole thing, or they break the whole thing. Otherwise they are simply manipulating the Law to make it seem to sanctify their own biases. Jesus fulfils the law, not by staying within it, but by going beyond it. And He was speaking to Jews - not Gentiles, such as most Christians are. When was the Law with its demands handed down to Gentiles ? It wasn't - it's deader than a corpse anyway, because its demands have been satisfied by Christ. It's a museum piece, at best - besides, a lot of it is grossly immoral & anti-Christian anyway: the Book of Esther is one of the worst books in the OT; as for Joshua, chapter 10:28-40 is worthy of Hitler, with its list of places depopulated by extermination. These are values from the pit of Hell. To pervert the Gospel of Christ with the wickedness of the Books of Joshua & Esther, is to Satanise Christ.

Not even the Bible can separate Christians from Christ - it is full of sin, but He saves from sin & therefore from it also. Luther was most uncomplimentary about the Law, & I'm happy to echo him on it. Or are we set free from the devil, only to be delivered up to an idol of paper and ink ? God forbid.

[theblueprint_Ni]

I've seen this person in another thread trying to promote his sacrilegious, non-orthodox agenda. I wish a moderator would slap him with a warning to permanently ban him from the orthodox forums.

[RBerman]

I've seen this person in another thread trying to promote his sacrilegious, non-orthodox agenda. I wish a moderator would slap him with a warning to permanently ban him from the orthodox forums.

There's a button in the bottom left corner of a given post where you can report it for moderator intervention. They have a system for doing what you describe.

[Xru]

Whoa . . . how did I miss this OP.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Whoa . . . how did I miss this OP.

You just got lucky, that's all...

Try to get over it...

I wasn't so lucky...

I'm not over it yet...

Pray for me...

Arsenios