Mature Thread - Christian Sexuality - Must be 18 to post

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Wait... you can get gas at orthodox churches?

Guaranteed - And we just went green and transformed the noxious and lethal gas of gossip and innuendo into laughing gas...

And yes, I know, NO [Nitrous Oxide] doesn't make you laugh...

Nor receiving this gas do you get gas...

Nor should it be passed...

A.

[Kanehbosm]

Meditation on Scripture is great, but he did not say he was meditating on Scripture. I'll wait for him to explain himself more fully.

Thank you, and yes this meditation comes from scripture. I am a true to heart Christian and I truly believe meditation and prayer come hand in hand. Meditation is probably the oldest form of prayer, when you think about it is probably the truth it seems like a more natural form of getting in touch with your spirtual side than on your hand and knees hands held together or your head bowing down or whatever you do for prayer.

The bible does not specifically say anything about oral or anal sex this is true. We have heard the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah and know sexual sin is real. The bibles vagueness to what is okay in bed lead me to this meditation, which I'm guessing this is why you are all here. The fact that this mediation stems from these thoughts is why I would have to say this mediation is definitely on scripture.

I'm for gay repentance as much as the next man, and I'm not going out of my way to bash gays. I am just saying I have come to understand through myself that anal and oral sex are homosexual sinful acts and should be left out of the good Christians life.

I have gay friends too I have to be around homosexuals on a day to day basis because of my occupation. As much as I would love for them all to turn over to Christ I don't see that happening for them all anytime soon! Keep praying i suppose

King James Bible
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer"

[RBerman]

The bible does not specifically say anything about oral or anal sex this is true. We have heard the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah and know sexual sin is real. The bibles vagueness to what is okay in bed lead me to this meditation, which I'm guessing this is why you are all here. The fact that this mediation stems from these thoughts is why I would have to say this mediation is definitely on scripture.

Can you see the difference between "I was meditating on Scripture and had this thought..." and "I was meditating on Scripture and saw that this passage teaches..."? The latter is what it means to act in a Berean manner on some particular topic. You appear to be describing the former.

[Ladybug823]

I have been holding out in the shadows watching this thread for quite some time. I am thinking that oral sex and anal sex can both be respectful good ways of lovemaking between a husband and wife. I think the latter of the two is the more controversial because of the dangers involved and is something that should be considered more carefully. From what I can tell there is nothing that specifies the acts as sinful but the fact that sexual acts are happening happening outside of a marriage or homosexually. The bible can and has been extremely specific about what is sin and what is not when it comes to sexuality and if a specific act between a loving man and a wife were considered "sinful" I would believe that God would ensure that we knew about it.

There is nothing that addresses these acts and if they can be done in a loving manner between a husband and wife that is respectful and loving just like the actual act of vaginal sex I see no reason why either one should be considered sinful or wrong as the bible does not specifically or generally preach against these acts. It preaches against homosexuality and adultery but not loving acts between a man and a wife.

That is my two cents anyway

[Kanehbosm]

If God wanted us to give oral or have anal sex women would be able to get pregnant with their mouth and anus. When I am mad at someone is my first reaction to punch them? No. When I am horny do I resort to crude animalistic means of pleasure no I go for what I know is holy in the eyes of my Lord Jesus • Edited by a Moderator • I will go on with my life sure I'm free of this sin • Edited by a Moderator • i simply do not need her to • Edited by a Moderator • as tempting as it is. as hard as you want it to be no pun intended to be a righteous act it just can't be.

I must admit I used to enjoy these things but these messages always rattled my brain that this is not what the lord sees holy. I would see my mind getting obsessive over • Edited by a Moderator • sometimes and would want them sometimes when my wife didn't want to give them as much • Edited by a Moderator • they would only cause trouble and corruption. It will make you greedYy for sexual pleasure and not for mutual Godly love that always ends in respect and love

[princesa]

If God wanted us to give oral or have anal sex women would be able to get pregnant with their mouth and anus. When I am mad at someone is my first reaction to punch them? No. When I am horny do I resort to crude animalistic means of pleasure no I go for what I know is holy in the eyes of my Lord Jesus • Edited by a Moderator • I will go on with my life sure I'm free of this sin • Edited by a Moderator • i simply do not need her to • Edited by a Moderator • as tempting as it is. as hard as you want it to be no pun intended to be a righteous act it just can't be.

I must admit I used to enjoy these things but these messages always rattled my brain that this is not what the lord sees holy. I would see my mind getting obsessive over • Edited by a Moderator • sometimes and would want them sometimes when my wife didn't want to give them as much • Edited by a Moderator • they would only cause trouble and corruption. It will make you greedYy for sexual pleasure and not for mutual Godly love that always ends in respect and love

welp i don't think for everyone practicing what you described (so vividly) would make them greedy for that particular kind of pleasure any more than the 'regular way' but i respect your position, alot actually, since you gave it thought, meditated on it, and all together really put God first in your decision. Everyone is different, there are folks that are Christians that do things 'differently' and get up in the morning, have their coffee and really not give it a second thought.

[Kanehbosm]

Thank you, I just see it as I should try to eliminate what I think God would want me to eliminate from my life. It seems to me that alot of people are looking at God's rules and trying to find ways around the their limits. I feel as if God would want us to refine the rules, NOT broaden.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

If God wanted us to give oral or have anal sex women would be able to get pregnant with their mouth and anus. When I am mad at someone is my first reaction to punch them? No. When I am horny do I resort to crude animalistic means of pleasure no I go for what I know is holy in the eyes of my Lord Jesus • Edited by a Moderator • I will go on with my life sure I'm free of this sin • Edited by a Moderator • i simply do not need her to • Edited by a Moderator • as tempting as it is. as hard as you want it to be no pun intended to be a righteous act it just can't be.

I must admit I used to enjoy these things but these messages always rattled my brain that this is not what the lord sees holy. I would see my mind getting obsessive over • Edited by a Moderator • sometimes and would want them sometimes when my wife didn't want to give them as much • Edited by a Moderator • they would only cause trouble and corruption. It will make you greedYy for sexual pleasure and not for mutual Godly love that always ends in respect and love

The marriage bed is holy and undefiled, and you are right to not defile it with pandering to sensations in any way you can imagine them...

The marriage bed CAN be defiled in seeking sexual sensations that are sought outside the realm of reproductive joy...

In these, we open the way to all manner of sensual indulgence, wherein as Christians, we are called to "mortify the flesh" in our walk in the Kingdom of God...

The treachery of sensations lies in the fact that ANYTHING can become sexually charged in our fallen state - The "sexuality" of Adolph Hitler being an extreme example, wherein having women defacate into his mouth brought him to consumation - And nothing else could do so... That is the end point of "fetishes", for they involve one in a sexual ritual that becomes exclusionary of all that is outside itself... And yes, it takes time to develop... And is indeed the "end" of any behavior that seeks fulfillment in sensations or rituals...

I have seen nothing here in this thread theologically that can separate sexual explorations outside reproductive joys from demonic incursions... But if one does not have a theology of ascetic repentance from pleasure and pain as life controllers, one will see no harm in a few "variant sensations"...

You are right in your approach, my Brother...

Sexual pleasure was first restricted by the circumcision of the penis of the males as babies in God's chosen people, the Jews...
It was killed off altogether in Sodom and Gomorrah for the sodomites...
It was further circumscribed by marriage and the death penalty for adultery...
It was again brought into obedience by "mortification of the flesh" in Christianity, which is far more restrictive than Judaism...

The rulership in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth is that of Christ, and not that of food, clothing, comforts, pleasures, desires, fears, angers, jealousies, and on and on... So that Christians turn away from the world, being strangers who ARE here but do not BELONG here... They embrace the Love of God that IS God, and care not a whit for anything of this world, except in obedience to Christ... This is the high road, straight and straited, of Christian discipleship, and as the Good Book tells us, few are they who find it... Most will find some excuse for themselves, in their sensuality, for sensual self indulgence, and justify it by keeping it within their marriage vows... God bless them, but know that you are doing well in your constraint...

Arsenios

[disciple100]

Forgive me, for I am about to ramble.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile now, even contributed earlier on, and I find that I agree with Kanehbosm and Arsenios on many of these things. Just to give some perspective, I am a 22 year old single virgin man. Let me tell you, I have thought alot about these things, both the appropriate (too little) and the inappropriate (too much) at proper times (all too rare) and improper times (all too frequent). It is a strong desire of mine to marry a Godly woman and make a life with her, but I have not found my other half, and to be honest, have not put forth much effort towards that goal, mostly out of fear and probably self-loathing. One of the advantages to being an introvert is the abundance of opportunities we have for self-reflection. One thing that I have noticed is that I am imperfect, and, most likely, will continue to be so until God makes that lasting alteration. But another is that I am different from, yet the same as, everyone else.

We are all imperfect people in our own similar but different ways, all offered the gift, that we are free to accept or dismiss, of salvation, and we all have immeasureable intrinsic worth because of the Loving Father. I am best at being me, and you are best at being you, and men are best at being men, and women are best at being women. Yet at the same time we all must bid farewell to self so that Christ may reside in our hearts, and accept the duty we have been given, that is, to share Christ and His story with others in our own similarily unique ways. And if necessary, use words. Because we are all the same we all grow, but, because we are all different, the rate and direction in which we grow can vary, vastly at times.

As C.S. Lewis said, and I paraphrase, there is an appropriate time and place for all actions like the notes to be played on the piano. I bring all this up because it is my round about way of saying that, because we all are at different stages of our growth and walk with God, what may seem righteous or wicked now may not be so later. Case and point, in this thread, we have had several individuals of varying backgrounds, life stages, and denominations give varying judgements of the same acts. Is their salvation at stake? Hardly. I think that the underlying question that is being asked is this: What is the best way to glorify God? One condition, that it is best to abstain from sexual intercourse until marriage, and a second condition, that marriage is only between a man, a woman, and at the center God, are agreed upon. Does it go farther than that? It certainly seems like it can. There are times that an act, any act, may be allowed upon technicality, but not necessarily condoned. With the Apostle Paul in mind, because it is permitted, does that mean it is beneficial? Or in the context of the underlying question one can (and sometimes must) ask: how can I glorify God with this?

I can certainly understand where people are coming from when they suggest that, perhaps, certain acts are not acceptable between a husband and wife. If an act is permitted because it falls within the boundaries that have been set, does that make it holy? The Israelites were called to be separate from the other nations in practice, in clothing, in diet, etc. How can we show the uniqueness of Christ if we behave similarly to the lost with regards to the questionable? Perhaps it is best to do away with the questionable so that the question need not be asked? There is living according to the Letter of the Law, and there is living according to the Spirit of the Law. The Scriptures provide stories about both. When one searches the Scriptures for an answer, the harsh question sometimes one must ask is this: Am I looking for a way to glorify God? Or a loophole?

Just ponderings. Peace be with you all.

[Zero Tolerance]

This is the epic bump to end all other bumps, but until recently, I didn't feel that I had any clairvoyance on the topic. My wife has proposed sexual acts that are outside of vaginal penetration, such as oral or massaging, and this was after having read Kevin Leman (Between the Sheets?) where he suggested oral or manual stimulation for partners whose libidos were more active than their spouses'.

That's what got me to thinking about it, because before then, it just seemed cruel and unusual, demeaning, vulgar even, to imagine my wife doing something like that to me. All things considered, gift from God, lifemeet, helper, etc. Those kinds of acts I more readily associated with "good time girls." Throwaway women. "Why would I kiss you on the same mouth that you do THAT?"

But then I started thinking about how sin has perverted sex. I'm pretty sure that while Adam and Eve experimented (I'll suspend my theory that they never had sex until after sin, because it seems paradoxical that sin corrupted sex AND sex was unnecessary until after sin...we can discuss that in another topic), more times than not, they probably were in the "traditional" style of vaginal penetration.

As far as anal is concerned, well, I'm sure someone has addressed this, but there are so many negatives that outweigh potential positives, one can almost certainly conclude that that is more of an exit than an entrance. In my eyes, that is still more of a self-pleasing act than one that consummates love.

[princesa]

This is the epic bump to end all other bumps, but until recently, I didn't feel that I had any clairvoyance on the topic. My wife has proposed sexual acts that are outside of vaginal penetration, such as oral or massaging, and this was after having read Kevin Leman (Between the Sheets?) where he suggested oral or manual stimulation for partners whose libidos were more active than their spouses'.

That's what got me to thinking about it, because before then, it just seemed cruel and unusual, demeaning, vulgar even, to imagine my wife doing something like that to me. All things considered, gift from God, lifemeet, helper, etc. Those kinds of acts I more readily associated with "good time girls." Throwaway women. "Why would I kiss you on the same mouth that you do THAT?"

But then I started thinking about how sin has perverted sex. I'm pretty sure that while Adam and Eve experimented (I'll suspend my theory that they never had sex until after sin, because it seems paradoxical that sin corrupted sex AND sex was unnecessary until after sin...we can discuss that in another topic), more times than not, they probably were in the "traditional" style of vaginal penetration.

As far as anal is concerned, well, I'm sure someone has addressed this, but there are so many negatives that outweigh potential positives, one can almost certainly conclude that that is more of an exit than an entrance. In my eyes, that is still more of a self-pleasing act than one that consummates love.

I don't know, I feel that certain acts that you mentioned are okay between a husband and wife that love eachother as it is an expression of their love. It's not bringing a third party in, or having to watch third parties on screen. It's two people in love, in the privacy of their home, expressing themselves to eachother. I never thought of it as demeaning or vulgar but i respect your point of view.

[KingsGambit]

Some think that Song of Solomon has veiled references to male-on-female oral sex (see http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNs..._Sex_a_Sin.htm .

As for your Adam and Eve and "they probably wouldn't have done anything other than vaginal intercourse", that's pure speculation that we just can't rely on; it's very similar to the "do you really think Jesus would have listened to Christian rock music if He were alive today?" argument.

[Carrikature]

(I'll suspend my theory that they never had sex until after sin, because it seems paradoxical that sin corrupted sex AND sex was unnecessary until after sin...we can discuss that in another topic)

Just give it up altogether. "Be fruitful and multiply" doesn't work in a no-sex setting.

more times than not, they probably were in the "traditional" style of vaginal penetration.

Pure, unadulterated speculation.

That's what got me to thinking about it, because before then, it just seemed cruel and unusual, demeaning, vulgar even, to imagine my wife doing something like that to me. All things considered, gift from God, lifemeet, helper, etc. Those kinds of acts I more readily associated with "good time girls." Throwaway women. "Why would I kiss you on the same mouth that you do THAT?"

If it's your wife's suggestion, then she clearly doesn't consider it overly demeaning. Just make sure she's not feeling pressured by the book and is comfortable with it on her own.

[RBerman]

it's very similar to the "do you really think Jesus would have listened to Christian rock music if He were alive today?" argument.

Wait, Jesus is not alive today? :O

I know what you meant. I just like to nitpick.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

"Be fruitful and multiply" doesn't work in a no-sex setting.

The simple fact is that we do not know what reproduction would have been outside the sin of Adam, and this for the very good reason that we do not know Adam's life in the Garden before the Fall... We only know procreation by sex because that is how procreation occurs NOW, in this fallen condition of not only ourselves but of our world, the kosmos... And I think we err when we apply our fallen standards as governing principles upon the pre- or post-fallen ages - Most do not in the Life of the Age to Come, for we have read how Jesus' body could enter sealed rooms and eat physical food and have wounds without being wounded, etc... But most do when it comes to life before the Fall of Adam... Agnosticism is, in this case, healthy!

There is an interesting Orthodox Theologoumenon [eg a pious understanding that is non-dogmatic] that tells us that the method of procreation for mankind had Adam not fallen would have been as Christ Himself was born... And the holy ones of God, like John the Baptist, lived "angelic" - eg virginal and highly ascetic lives of deprivation of normal fallen human 'comforts' - And in these 'deprivations' find their ascent to the heavenlies, following Christ's instruction to the violent to take the Kingdom of Heaven by force, shattering self-will on the rock of willful self-denial... And the point of this is to DENY this fallen world of the power of death under which it is ruled in this fallen age... To regain what was lost at any cost... And not many can do it - Paul in Hebrews recounts many of the Old Testament holy ones who did so...

Perhaps the better question for married couples to ask themselves might be "What is the purpose of their sexual lives together?" If it is to maximize personal pleasure, then pretty much anything goes... If it is to have children, then simple, loving and kind lovemaking will ensue as a normal and ongoing fact of one's marriage... If this proves "boring", and you feel the need to "enhance" YOUR experience of pleasure in this arena, and designate the arena as a separate arena of pleasure enhancement, then you are either simply not fundamentally crazy about your spouse, which will turn sex into mechanical repetition, or you are both moving past the sex and entering into a more ascetic phase of your spiritual lives... [And yes, couples can be 'out of synch' in this development.]

But important to remember is that we are not to be, as Christians, worshipers of the flesh, maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain, but are called to mortify the flesh with its lustings... Salvation is not found is maximal sexual relations with one's spouse, but in one's spouse's maximal relationship with God, and one's own self-sacrifice in that regard FOR one's spouse is, after all, the basis for the Sacrament of Marriage, blessed by God... Marriage is not about self-fulfillment in the pleasures of sex and a balanced life in the world, but is instead, or should be instead, about union with God and the rearing of the children God blesses you with in that union...

If you do not regard your marriage as a Sacrament of God, but instead see it as your personal vows to one another BEFORE God, then you have turned it into a human enterprise of inter-personal self-fulfillment... And in this, it will devolve according to humanistic standards, which must affirm "gay marriage" and all other manner of human "arrangements" for the self-fulfillment of the fallen...

Arsenios