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Thread: Gender disphoria?

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    Emeritus Professor Trout's Avatar
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    Red face Gender disphoria?

    Lots of talk on this issue of late and I don't quite know what to think.

    There seems to be a distinction with the language we use to describe the discussion.

    Sex = biological?

    Gender = psychological?

    Reading several psychological opinions (including the WHO website) it seems that gender disphoria is still classified as a mental disorder. However listening to popular opinion, gender disphoria seems as normal as having two thumbs.

    At first blush the discussion seems rather straightforward: a man with gender disphoria is a man in every regard, every cell in his body has a Y chromosome. (With the exception of some of his sperm) but his brain is telling him differently.

    This can lead to all kinds of problems for the individual. Enough so that it can effect his life in very adverse ways.

    I can certainly see it as a disorder.

    It's hard for me NOT to see it as a disorder. Perhaps I'm mistaken?
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    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    I've similar reservations.

    Every description I've heard of this is highly dependent upon stereotypes such that I doubt someone could describe this condition without stereotypes.
    If you feel like a girl in a boy's body what does it mean to feel like a girl, how does it differ from feeling like a boy, and how do you know the difference?
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I've similar reservations.

    Every description I've heard of this is highly dependent upon stereotypes such that I doubt someone could describe this condition without stereotypes.
    If you feel like a girl in a boy's body what does it mean to feel like a girl, how does it differ from feeling like a boy, and how do you know the difference?
    that's actually a very good point.

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    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    Also, can the typical transgendered person show me the part that didn't match the physical expression?
    If we don't have evidence of being beyond our meat then what part of the meat doesn't match?
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    There are women who are born with XY chromosomes, but with a complete insensitivity to androgens. It's rare but it occurs. They have labia, vaginas, wombs, breasts, they develop feminine curves when they hit puberty, and they develop exactly like other girls, and no one treats them differently.

    But the big difference is that they have testicles instead of ovaries.

    If DNA is destiny, which I don't believe, and if XY = Male and XX = Female, then these women are men.

    That's one reason why I don't think sex can be simply boiled down to chromosomes. Sex chromosomes can cause the right development of a person into either a man or a woman, but it doesn't determine this development.

    The result is a spectrum, with most people being identifiable as either male or women, with some outliers who have mixed attributes: Someone who is physically female but identifies as a male and wishes to be seen and treated as a man. To the various intersexed cases, where a person who identifies mostly as a particular gender, are born with a physical sex that is ambiguous, and sometimes even chromosomes that are ambiguous.

    We all agree that there are completely clear cases. Most people fall into those, male and women, and don't have any problem being identified as such. As for the outliers, I believe this is where gender becomes a social construction. We have to figure out what place they have, and unlike most Christians here I don't think it's a clear case.

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    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trout View Post
    .... It's hard for me NOT to see it as a disorder. Perhaps I'm mistaken?
    It seems to be a normal psychological reaction (distress) to an abnormal physical condition.

    “[Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. It's sometimes known as gender identity disorder (GID), gender incongruence or transgenderism.]”

    “[Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.]”
    http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Gender-...roduction.aspx
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

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    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trout View Post
    Reading several psychological opinions (including the WHO website) it seems that gender disphoria is still classified as a mental disorder.
    I was almost always categorized as a personality disorder in danish journals of psychiatry. This was very recently changed, and now it's argued that only certain subgroups of gender dysphoria is a disorder of identity. Their argument is that they find a distinction between transgender people who have a very clear gender identity different than the one assigned at birth, and its an identity they're happy with, and a group of people who are struggling with what they are and are unhappy and depressed. Different treatments for either group is needed.

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    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    There are women who are born with XY chromosomes, but with a complete insensitivity to androgens. It's rare but it occurs. They have labia, vaginas, wombs, breasts, they develop feminine curves when they hit puberty, and they develop exactly like other girls, and no one treats them differently.
    This is a logical fallacy known as the Exception Fallacy.

    BTW, the only way your objection works is if significance is applied to physical characteristics.
    The term 'testicles' in this case - which is exactly the argument someone who questions transgenderism is making.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    There are women who are born with XY chromosomes, but with a complete insensitivity to androgens. It's rare but it occurs. They have labia, vaginas, wombs, breasts, they develop feminine curves when they hit puberty, and they develop exactly like other girls, and no one treats them differently.

    But the big difference is that they have testicles instead of ovaries.

    If DNA is destiny, which I don't believe, and if XY = Male and XX = Female, then these women are men.

    That's one reason why I don't think sex can be simply boiled down to chromosomes. Sex chromosomes can cause the right development of a person into either a man or a woman, but it doesn't determine this development.

    The result is a spectrum, with most people being identifiable as either male or women, with some outliers who have mixed attributes: Someone who is physically female but identifies as a male and wishes to be seen and treated as a man. To the various intersexed cases, where a person who identifies mostly as a particular gender, are born with a physical sex that is ambiguous, and sometimes even chromosomes that are ambiguous.

    We all agree that there are completely clear cases. Most people fall into those, male and women, and don't have any problem being identified as such. As for the outliers, I believe this is where gender becomes a social construction. We have to figure out what place they have, and unlike most Christians here I don't think it's a clear case.
    These people are male. Just like Bruce Jenner is a man, and will remain one despite any surgery or hormone therapy. I don't think "DNA is destiny", but there are some things that are pretty clear cut.

    ETA: I'm guessing most of the people who treat androgen insensitive people as female without any reservation at all don't yet know about the issue in that individual, and would change how they treat them if they found out.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


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    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    These people are male.
    I discussed pretty much the whole gamut of people, so when you say 'these' in response to my post it leaves it completely ambiguous who you're trying to refer to: The women with complete androgen insensitivity disorder, but with XY chromosomes? Or someone else?

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