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Gender disphoria?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Going back to your earlier post, this is the only coherent explanation I can find. I've cut it down for clarity, but I've tried to reproduce it fairly.

    "They have XY chromosomes, therefore they are male. They also have testicles, therefore they are male. ... Androgen insensitivity is an unfortunate condition, but it doesn't change a man into a woman any more than Bruce Jenner's surgery and hormone therapy changed him into one."

    There's a statement here that XY chromosomes determine that someone is male. And testicles determine that someone is male.

    I get that.

    But instead of answering my question and explaining why that is as I clearly asked. In fact, it was the only question in the entire post and I put it right at the top. You instead write a post, twice as long, repeating rephrasings of the statement a number of times. That isn't an argument, nor even an explanation, it's just contradiction.

    I'm sorry Cerebrum123, because I can see you put effort into writing it, but your new post has no content for me to address beyond the old one.

    I won't be discussing Caitlyn Jenner in this thread or the controversy about that person.

    You have a few minor points I think would be good to address.



    I agree that if we accept that women with complete androgen insensitivity are truly women, then that does indicate that chromosomes can't be the unique identifiers of what a person's sex is. A person can be an XY woman. I don't know whether there are cases where we actually have XX men, though we'd have to consider that a theoretical possibility then, however far out.

    These people would be essentially infertile.

    As such, since in every respect, aside from fertility, they're male or women, then there is no reason to treat them as anything different, at all. Nor do I think they could objectively be considered anything.

    In this explanation, you have an opportunity to go further, but you just beg the question at the end, using your conclusion as an assumption, when that was exactly what I wanted you to explain.

    Your second point is that if we can't trust chromosomes we lose an objective marker which would be undesirable.

    But I'm afraid without explaining why we should take XX chromosomes as being women, or XY chromosomes as being male, regardless of other indicators, your argument falls flat. Appealing to this because it's "easier" or more "clear" or "won't cut it otherwise", without clarifiers are exactly just appeals to social constructions of gender. Something that you ironically repudiate in me. In this case, you'd be arguing for the status quo of a social construction that you prefer.

    It would only become objective, if you could reduce masculinity, and maleness down to the XY chromosome and show that it's a sine qua non.

    You haven't. No one has. And personally, I don't think you can reduce what it means to be a male, to a diploid's chromosomal makeup.

    So I'm afraid you simply beg the question.



    God bless, rest well. Return if and when you feel like it. I hope to see you back.
    Just an FYI if you have someone with an Appearance of a male with an XY chromosome or an appearance of a female with an XX its called Pseudohermaphrodism different case all together. Then there is Jacobson's syndrome XYY and Kleinfelter's XXY also Hirshito's where the body of a female produces extreme amounts of Testosterone. Once again these are exceptions not the rules. And then there is the rare Hermaphrodite (XXYY) where someone is born with both genital organs and hormones. still exceptions. Dysphoria (rare without excessive hormones and a product of nature/nurture) really appears to have a genuine hatred for one's body and the inability to grasp the beauty of the self. Its sad.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Trout View Post
      Would you disagree that it's a mental disorder and if so, shouldn't we as a society seek proper therapy instead of normalization of these individuals?
      Please be clear on what the disorder is. Gender dysphoria is serious dissatisfaction with your gender. By definition anything that disrupts your life is a disorder. This does *not* mean that living as transgender is a disorder. Adopting a transgender identity could, and for some people apparently does, deal with their dissatisfaction with their birth gender. In such cases the dissatisfaction is a disorder, but the transgender identity is not. It's the treatment for the disorder. When mainstream psychologists classify gender dysphoria as a disorder, they are *not* saying that "transgenderism" is a disorder.

      There are, of course, a number of issues raised by this, but none are solved by noting the dysphoria is considered a disorder:
      * Is the dysphoria worth worrying about?
      * Is treating it by living with a transgender identity successful? I guess more precisely, in what fraction of cases does it significantly reduce the dysphoria?
      * How does that success rate compare with trying to help the person accept their birth gender?
      * Even if it works, is it somehow unethical to live as a gender different from your birth gender?

      My understanding is that various forms of transgender life are on average more effective than trying to help people accept their birth gender. My understanding is that Scripture has nothing to say about this, as anything that might be quoted would also prevent treating other conditions that we routinely treat.
      Last edited by hedrick; 05-13-2017, 08:17 PM.

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