Total Depravity thought

[nikolai_42]

My understanding of total depravity from a Reformed perspective is that it has to do with a moral uprightness sufficient to merit anything from God (i.e. salvation). One objection I've heard is that people are able to do good to others and that unregenerate people can be some of the kindest people around - helping others in need etc... But isn't that sort of what Jesus was getting at when He said this to the Pharisees :

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 7:11

The issue isn't the ability to do nice things, to be helpful, to care, to assist etc..., the issue is one of fundamental goodness, isn't it?

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:16-17

Which serves to underscore that point.

However, that leaves me in a little bit of a quandary as to the issue of fruits/good works. We are told by Jesus that a good tree cannot bear corrupt fruit nor a bad tree good fruit. I can see having that support the contention that none is good but God and that none can do good (fundamentally good, that is) but God, but where does that leave the evil Pharisee? How can he give good gifts (good fruit?) if he is evil? Is this a distinction between fundamentally good and morally good (i.e. if you, being fundamentally evil can give morally or practically good gifts...)?

Maybe I've answered my own question....

[hedrick]

Yes, I agree. Of course total depravity doesn't mean that there is no good, just that good is always compromised by things like mixed motives. It is also in opposition to concepts that trace evil to one particular aspect of a person, e.g. that the soul is pure and is weighed down by the body. All aspects of the person are compromised by sin.

[Trusty]

The way I see it, all kinds of unregenerate people can do all kinds of "good" things. They just amount to filthy rags as far as God is concerned. Without faith (in Christ) one can not please God.

I find it funny at how often atheists and people of other religions pound their chests declaring how moral they are.

God says, "so what?"

[hedrick]

I wouldn't say "so what." This is something Luther called "civil righteousness." We certainly want society to be as civilized as possible. While civil righteousness won't in itself lead to salvation, it is still the work of the Holy Spirit, and should be respected as such.

[Chappie]

Total depravity is a misnomer...

[Michael T.]

Chappie,

Chappie wrote:
“Total depravity is a misnomer...”

From an exclusively Scriptural viewpoint, please tell us precisely why total depravity is a misnomer.”

I recommend Romans 3:9-18 as a Bible passage which will ne helpful for you when you compose your reply.

Michael T.

[Chappie]

Chappie,

Chappie wrote:
“Total depravity is a misnomer...”

From an exclusively Scriptural viewpoint, please tell us precisely why total depravity is a misnomer.”

I recommend Romans 3:9-18 as a Bible passage which will be helpful for you when you compose your reply.

Michael T.

Out of respect to you Micheal T, I read it again.

Must now reiterate, The phrase "Total Depravity" is a misnomer for the following reason. From a reformed perspective they do not mean total as determined by a proper definition of the word. They do not mean totally depraved from a moral standpoint, they mean that this depravity has spread throughout the mind and body; they mean that the total person is somewhat depraved, but not totally absolutely depraved.

Without this explanation, the phrase is totally deceptive...

From a scriptural standpoint, one does not have to be morally perfect in order to do some things that are considered good in God's sight. Still what we can rest our conclusion on is the fact that without faith, it is impossible to please God. God acknowledges good as good, but he will not consider it as meritorious unless it is done through faith...

In order to fully understand the phrase, it must be accompanied with an explanation that limits the totality of the depravity. That’s a misnomer.

Please show me where these passages describe the extent of said depravity so as to deternin it to be total…
Romans 3:9-18 (King James Version)
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Total depravity:
They made it up, it is an exaggeration, and they are sticking to it no matter what.

[hedrick]

I agree. Total depravity sounds like everyone is as depraved as possible. That's not what is meant. A number of Reformed folks prefer "total inability", with the implication that we are totally unable to do anything for salvation without God's grace moving us.

[RonC]

I agree. Total depravity sounds like everyone is as depraved as possible. That's not what is meant. A number of Reformed folks prefer "total inability", with the implication that we are totally unable to do anything for salvation without God's grace moving us.

We are totally unable to do anything without God. We cannot murder our enemies without God and we cannot love our enemies... without God. Calvin's concept of "total depravity" was and is infantile. Even as amended to mean "total inability" the concept is theologically and metaphysically infantile... established seemingly to sound profound... as the Bard said, all sound and fury signifying nothing...

[Chappie]

We are totally unable to do anything without God. We cannot murder our enemies without God and we cannot love our enemies... without God. Calvin's concept of "total depravity" was and is infantile. Even as amended to mean "total inability" the concept is theologically and metaphysically infantile... established seemingly to sound profound... as the Bard said, all sound and fury signifying nothing...

"We cannot murder our enemies without God and we cannot love our enemies... without God."

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but ever so often really sick things are perpetrated by reformed theology. Would you take your earthly mother and father along for the ride when you contemplate murdering someone? Statements like that deserve no respect. And from me they will get none...

Imagine the rapist stating, I cannot rape anyone to night, have to wait until God is with me... I'll rape two tomorrow night after evening prayers...

[RonC]

"We cannot murder our enemies without God and we cannot love our enemies... without God."

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but ever so often really sick things are perpetrated by reformed theology. Would you take your earthly mother and father along for the ride when you contemplate murdering someone? Statements like that deserve no respect. And from me they will get none...

Imagine the rapist stating, I cannot rape anyone to night, have to wait until God is with me... I'll rape two tomorrow night after evening prayers...

Hey Chappie!

Hope all is well.

Name me something that anyone would or could do without God?

[Chappie]

Hey Chappie!

Hope all is well.

Name me something that anyone would or could do without God?

Perpetrate reformed Theology.

Reformed Theologians have taken an element of truth and distorted it into a blasphemous lie. The only thing missing is the ten virgins...

Be well RonC...
Time to shake the dust of my feet...

[Chappie]

"We cannot murder our enemies without God and we cannot love our enemies... without God."

With things like this, and other thoughts that place God as the cause of every evil perpetrated, creating and arbitrarily torturing people for eternity: I was wondering, at what age does reformed Theology start teaching children their concept of God. At what age is it deemed appropriate to educate children without causing them to become Scientologists, atheists, or are driven to some other religion because of the seemingly evil attributed to God by reformed theology.

I know I would not want my Children taught that God causes evil just so he can cause some good to come out of it. I definitely would not want them taught that children being raped and murdered is God's will. At what age is it appropriate to expose them to such things when they definitely need God as a role model for how to mature into adults and live godly lives?

I am now beginning to wonder about the authenticity of the origins of the conclusions that all men deserve hell and that God is glorified even if he chooses to save ten and burn a thousand... Some things perpetrated in darkness vanish when exposed to the light...Perhaps another thread...

[Chappie]

My understanding of total depravity from a Reformed perspective is that it has to do with a moral uprightness sufficient to merit anything from God (i.e. salvation). One objection I've heard is that people are able to do good to others and that unregenerate people can be some of the kindest people around - helping others in need etc... But isn't that sort of what Jesus was getting at when He said this to the Pharisees :

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 7:11

The issue isn't the ability to do nice things, to be helpful, to care, to assist etc..., the issue is one of fundamental goodness, isn't it?

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:16-17

Which serves to underscore that point.

However, that leaves me in a little bit of a quandary as to the issue of fruits/good works. We are told by Jesus that a good tree cannot bear corrupt fruit nor a bad tree good fruit. I can see having that support the contention that none is good but God and that none can do good (fundamentally good, that is) but God, but where does that leave the evil Pharisee? How can he give good gifts (good fruit?) if he is evil? Is this a distinction between fundamentally good and morally good (i.e. if you, being fundamentally evil can give morally or practically good gifts...)?

Maybe I've answered my own question....

The bible definitely speaks of moral depravity; total depravity speaks of a degree of depravity. On a scale of 1 to 10, where does total depravity begin? It logically has to begin and end with the highest degree which is 10. Starting at 1, and ending at 9, there are 9 degrees of depravity before we get to 10. And each one of those degrees is present in the hearts of men. Some men are more depraved than others; this is why the 10 cannot be used as an absolute.

Total depravity denies that some men are more depraved than others. It eliminates the need for a final judgment. If all are total, that eliminates degrees of punishment appropriate to ones deeds, it also eliminates degrees of reward according to ones works/deeds.

Total depravity is an unscriptural, unbiblical exaggeration that compromises the integrity of many other passages in the bible. It is a phrase that should not be uttered without an extensive explanation of what is meant by it. And because said explanation will be as varied and different as there are explanations, the phrase is nothing more than a divisive exaggeration...

But then 90% of reformed theology takes a small truth and subsequently exaggerates it into a big lie...

[RonC]

Chappie,

In response to your statements I already asked you a question. You did not answer... perhaps you did not see it, so I pose it again.

Name something that anyone would or could do without God?