Muslim dating question

[Dan Zebiri]

Hehehhehheeh!

Thats very easy barney-boy! DON'T YOU EVEN READ the news link to Gulf News that I provided you with??!! Already...! What a lazy barnasha. - AND I AINT SLAMMING YOUR CHARACTER, YAAAHH!

Saudi women use fatwa in driving bid

The women threatened to follow through the fatwa which allows them to breastfeed their drivers and turn them into their sons

* By Abdul Rahman Shaheen, Correspondent
* Published: 00:01 June 20, 2010
* Gulf News
* Reader comments (41)

* Image Credit: Gulf News

Riyadh: Saudi women plan to turn a controversial fatwa (religious ruling) to their advantage and launch a campaign to achieve their long-standing demand to drive in this conservative kingdom.

If the demand is not met, the women threatened to follow through the fatwa which allows them to breastfeed their drivers and turn them into their sons.

The campaign will be launched under the slogan: "We either be allowed to drive or breastfeed foreigners," a journalist told Gulf News.


Amal Zahid said that their decision follows a fatwa issued by a renowned scholar which said that Saudi women can breastfeed their foreign drivers for them to become their sons.

"As every Saudi family needs a driver, our campaign will focus on women's right to drive," she said.

The controversial fatwa, which was regarded as both funny and weird, issued recently by Shaikh Abdul Mohsin Bin Nasser Al Obaikan, member of Saudi Council of Senior Scholars and adviser to the king, has sparked a debate in society.

The renowned scholar said Saudi women can breastfeed their foreign drivers for them to be become their sons and brothers to their daughters.

Under this relationship, foreign drivers can mix freely with all members of the family without breaking the Islamic rule which does not allow mixing of genders.

Breast milk kinship is considered to be as good as a blood relationship in Islam.

"A woman can breastfeed a mature man so that he becomes her son. In this way, he can mix with her and her daughters without violating the teachings of Islam," the scholar said.

‘Ridiculous and weird'

Al Obaikan based his fatwa on a Hadith (saying) of the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) which was narrated by Salim, the servant of Abu Huzaifa.

Later, Al Obaikan clarified that his fatwa was being distorted by the local media which ignored the condition that the milk should be drawn out of the woman and given to the man in a cup to drink.

Speaking to Gulf News, a number of Saudi women condemned the fatwa. Fatima Al Shammary was quoted by the local Arabic daily Al Watan as saying the fatwa was "ridiculous and weird".

"This fatwa has become a hot topic of debate among women. Is this is all that is left to us to do: to give our breasts to the foreign drivers?" she said.

Another Saudi woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity, questioned: "Does Islam allow me to breastfeed a foreign man and prevent me from driving my own car?

"I have not breastfed my own children. How do you expect me to do this with a foreign man? What is this nonsense?" she said.

Another woman said the fatwa should also apply to the husbands who should be breastfed by housemaids. By doing so, all will be brothers and sisters," she said.

Hamid Al Ali, a journalist for an electronic newspaper, recalled that an Egyptian driver who had a crush on a female teacher he drives to school asked her to breastfeed him. When she retorted angrily, he said: "I want to be your son."

Saudi writer Suzan Al Mashhadi sarcastically asked Al Obaikan: "Do the women have to breastfeed the driver in the presence of their husbands or can they do this alone?"

"Who will protect the wife if the husband entered the house unexpectedly and found his wife breastfeeding the driver?" she asked.

On and on and on the ABSURDITY of islam goes!!!

Hey ! - I have given you CURRENT DISCUSSION of this ancient 'practice or injunction' ordered by the sunna of your prophet!

What more do you want???!

Pictures of these muslim ladies BREASTFEEDING their foreign drivers?!~

Never mind - JUST in case you 'forgot' the link. here you are, AGAIN :

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-...g-bid-1.643431

Its very current indeed - just this past June, 2010..!

Even muslims are finding islam and its injunctions 'RIDICULOUS AND WEIRD' - to use their OWN words - see the report above.

Indeed islam is Seriously out of touch with reality, and is shown to be a stone-age superstition!

Therefore, your pathetic 'dare' is merely a bluff!!

Don't slink away from this one, again, barney!

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha, we are all waiting for your thoughtful reply to my previous post (above), or linked here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...7&postcount=31

I have furnished clear proof of absurd islamic social incongruity in the matter of 'mixing of the sexes' and you have run away! Why!?

Regards, Dan.

[barnasha]

from the article you provided as proof this is somehow relevant.

‘Ridiculous and weird'
Al Obaikan based his fatwa on a Hadith (saying) of the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) which was narrated by Salim, the servant of Abu Huzaifa.
Later, Al Obaikan clarified that his fatwa was being distorted by the local media which ignored the condition that the milk should be drawn out of the woman and given to the man in a cup to drink.
Speaking to Gulf News, a number of Saudi women condemned the fatwa. Fatima Al Shammary was quoted by the local Arabic daily Al Watan as saying the fatwa was "ridiculous and weird".


Nobody really takes you seriously, Dan, because you don't take yourself seriously.

[Dan Zebiri]

Actually it is islam and its sunna/traditions of muhammad that need not be taken seriously, ever.

Al Obaikan's fatwa/religious edict on islamic adult suckling is 'ridiculous and weird' PRECISELY BECAUSE it is founded on the item in the sunna of Muhammad that is nonsensical, ridiculous AND weird!

Don't deal with his fatwa, barnasha, deal with the Hadith itself, which gave rise to that fatwa...

1) The Hadith Sahih of Muslim :

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c....html#008.3425

Book 008, Number 3425:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.

Book 008, Number 3426:

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he (Muhd.) said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

Book 008, Number 3427:

Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her): A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to cometo you (freely).

If al-Obaikan's the Ulema's fatwa is weird and ridiculous, then THIS hadith of muhammad's sunna is absurd, nonsensical and downright INSANE, thats even worse.

How can this become the basis for the orthopraxy for countless of sunni muslims today? No wonder islam and muslims seem to remain stuck in some kind of hideous rut just like that of the stone age world, out of touch with the realities of time.

Muslims take THIS Hadeeth seriously enough to come up with practical injunctions for living in contemporary society. Explain to us Barnasha, just HOW this hadeeth ITSELF is not 'weird and ridiculous' but is just a foolish superstition that muslims are made to blindly follow..?

How does drinking a woman's milk 'make a male companion into her brother', magically?

Does her milk upon consumption by the unrelated male muslim, transforms his morphology and physiology and genetically their DNA suddenly becomes that of 'a brother and sister'?! Proof please..!

Just how are the islamic hadeeth mentioned above are not mere nonsense superstitions, because the ulemas / scholars of the islamic world do indeed take these very sahih references of Muslim (Book 8 : 3425, 3426 and 3427) seriously ENOUGH to enjoin practices for muslim daily living from them.

Deal with THAT, barnasha.

from the article you provided as proof this is somehow relevant.




‘Ridiculous and weird'
Al Obaikan based his fatwa on a Hadith (saying) of the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) which was narrated by Salim, the servant of Abu Huzaifa.
Later, Al Obaikan clarified that his fatwa was being distorted by the local media which ignored the condition that the milk should be drawn out of the woman and given to the man in a cup to drink.
Speaking to Gulf News, a number of Saudi women condemned the fatwa. Fatima Al Shammary was quoted by the local Arabic daily Al Watan as saying the fatwa was "ridiculous and weird".


Nobody really takes you seriously, Dan, because you don't take yourself seriously.

[barnasha]

Actually it is islam and its sunna/traditions of muhammad that need not be taken seriously, ever.

If so, why is the only reference you can find to it is where someone tried to bring it up in a real life situation and it got criticized as being 'weird' and 'ridiculous'?

[smaneck]

Even muslims are finding islam and its injunctions 'RIDICULOUS AND WEIRD' - to use their OWN words - see the report above.

Since the injunction in question is not really Islamic, Muslims should find it ridiculous and weird. How can women driving cars be prohibited under the shariah? There were no cars in Muhammad's time!

[smaneck]

in traditional islamic culture, you don't have boyfriends and girlfriends... the emphasis on marriage is very strong. but this isn't exclusive to islamic culture. dating is arguably a more modern western tradition.

There is a hadith which says that if an unmarried man and woman are together alone, Satan will be with them. That sort of discourages unchaperoned dating, in any case.

BTW, I wish they would show that series here in the US. I think it is great.

[smaneck]

there are arguments for this approach - romantic ideas and lust get in the way of the more important decisions one makes when choosing a mate for life. it is interesting that some statistics have shown that arranged marriages have a higher success rate than ones that are not.

By success I presume you mean the divorce rate is less. I don't know that this equates to happier marriages.

[smaneck]

Nowadays western muslim girls are conceded far more freedom in many ways but the dating scene, that is, freely meeting with various men and kiss&hug romance with boyfriends is still causing polemics.

This is looked askanced at by Christians outside of the Western world as well. When I lived in India I stayed a Christian girls hostel. Around Christmas time the young men from a boys hostel were invited over for a program. After the program was over and the boys went home, only *then* did the girls have a dance. Arranged marriages were common in the Christian community as well. As for women having to be submissive, doesn't the Bible say that about wives as well?

[smaneck]

Anastasia, Yes, that girl cannot date, and some muslims here will give you a politically correct answer, unfortunately which is not the really islamic answer.

But since you asked an honest and open answer, it deserves the truthful answer and the authentically orthodox islamic one. Not just a politically correct response!

In sunni islam (ie.orthodox, classical islam) there are guidelines that muhammad himself set up in the matter of mixing of the sexes.

This is a dumb and irrelevant answer, Dan. The reason a man can mix freely with his nurse-maid is because sex with her would fall under the category of incest. So this 'suckling' business would not exactly be a way to date someone.

[smaneck]

So, according to islam and muhammad, unrelated muslim males and females in the company of one another, should be suckled by those females, and drink their milk from their breasts so that they can be together! This is the islamic way.

All you've proven is the dubious nature of hadith reports.

[barnasha]

No, the dubious nature of picking hearsay at random and formulating spurious doctrine on it, while ignoring the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of even more relevant information..

[smaneck]

No, the dubious nature of picking hearsay .

Well, as you know hadith reports are hearsay.

[barnasha]

Well, as you know hadith reports are hearsay.

yes - that's why i chose the word.... hearsay isn't necessarily false, but it could be, and hearing parts of it doesn't mean you have the full story

[smaneck]

yes - that's why i chose the word.... hearsay isn't necessarily false, but it could be, and hearing parts of it doesn't mean you have the full story

Personally I would be especially suspicious of hadith reports that try to get around an Islamic law, as this business of breast-feeding adults appears to do. I think the hadith reports that replace confessions for the required four witnesses in cases of adultery are likely fabricated for the same reason. The Qur'an very deliberately made adultery an unprovable crime, but someone later on needed to find a way around this.