Muslim dating question

[barnasha]

You said "I am under the impression that muslim girls are not brought up with typical western tales like Cinderella and Barbie. It is not put in a girl´s head (during her education at home) that she will actively look for her Prince charming as is profiled in western romance books and films. "

I don't think this is true - especially not for muslim women who grow up in western countries.

I think it can be true for many of them, perhaps, but i don't really see muslim women as that different from non-muslims, even given the cultural divides.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

According to the most respected institution in the world of Sunni Islam the Al-Azhar University in Cairo Egypt, the answer to Anastasia's valid question comes!

According to an Arabic article in Al-Arabiyya the Egyptian Parliament in 2007, discussed a fatwa (an edict or islamic religious ruling) from an Al-Azhar cleric/'priest' that aims to circumvent the prohibition on a male and a female who are not married to each other from being together or working together in private. All she has to do, you see, is suckle him.

Then he becomes her foster child, and they can be together without a chaperone.

This is known as 'adult suckling' in islam (at least sunni islam)

This command is firmly based and rooted in islamic authoritative sources.This bizarre ruling is based, of course, on Muhammad's own words.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (puberty) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something rankles in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle, said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.
(Sahih Muslim 3425)

Muhammad tells the daughter of Suhail to suckle Salim. This will make her unlawful to him, that is, he won't be able to marry her because he will be her foster child. Thus it will be lawful for him to be in the house with her, and Abu Hudhaifa will no longer be angry.

So, now you know & understand why that lady cannot date another man?

According to this Fatwa (edict), If she is even in the company of another man who is not her blood relative, she cannot marry him. This defeats the purpose and objective of Dating of course-to ultimately find a suitable life partner or husband.

According to this edict/fatwa, the only way she can be together with him is to SUCKLE HIM or allow him to suckle & drink from her breasts some of her milk.

THEN, he and she 'become her foster child' according to this bizzare instruction.

And being relatives, they therefore cannot be married.

So, thats WHY she cannot go dating. Anybody she 'dates' will have to become her foster brother by suckling him.

This is the AUTHENTIC islamist and muslim way.

Now, try wrapping your head honestly around this muslim explanation and the hadith sahih that supports it! Let me hear your thinking on it!.

[barnasha]

Can you give an instance of where this occurs or is even talked about in Muslim communities today, because I have never even heard of this. Are you sure this is relevant?

[Dan Zebiri]

Well, barney...This betrays your abysmal knowledge and understanding of true Islam and the sunna of orthodox islam.

I can give you at least 4-5 references where this is discussed without hesitation.

1) The Hadith Sahih of Muslim :

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c....html#008.3425

Book 008, Number 3425:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained (purbety) as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely, I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her: Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.

Book 008, Number 3426:

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

Book 008, Number 3427:

Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her): A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

2) the Al-Arabiya news forum and site :

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/20...34518.html#007

IF you understand and can read the news and discussion in the arabic.

3) the Islamic ALert website by Raymond Ibrahim

http://islamicalert.com/raymond-ibra...east-milk.html

4) the Wikipedia website on Rada' / ridaa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rada_%28fiqh%29

This shows that your prophet Muhammad and his sunna endorses wierd and bizzare practices such as 'adult suckling' amongst the muslims - of yesterday AND today!

Dan.

[barnasha]

the volumes of hadeeth are extensive, it doesn't mean each hadeeth is an integral part of religion at all.

they are all just stories of something that happened, not a core part of faith.

there are stories of people urinating too, doesn't mean urinating is part of the faith.

so, again - could you please let me know how this is relevant? can you find any examples of muslims talking about how this is part of their faith, at all?

[Chabchaba]

Hehehe.... my experience with muslim lady friends is indeed quite different than the posts of Chabchaba.

This is how they have explained it to me.

In Islam culture a woman is never considered an independant person. Her whole life, she is and will be submitted. There is not a phase in life where she can have, like in the modern western world, an independant, single life outside her home and expose herself to the looks (and thoughts) of man.

She is submitted to her father and/or eldest brother and later to her husband.

They are responsible for her honour. And her honour is strongly linked to the honour of her family. The slightest whisper about her even being looked at or talked to by a man, can be considered as a failure of her father and brothers to keep their good family name.

Under no cirumstances girls are to be left alone with men. The honour of a girl (her uncorrupted 1000% virginity) is of extreme importance for being able to marry, as the man she will be for the rest of her life submitted to, has the right to claim that his woman is pure and untouched.

So dating in the sense of going to the movies or having dinner with a man alone is still very much out of the question. Let alone the scenario of going to the movies or have dinner with another man, a couple of months later.

Very strict muslims are still prearranging the marriage. And in that case, the purity is even more an issue and of much influence on her "freedom" to leave the house unaccompanied.

Nowadays western muslim girls are conceded far more freedom in many ways but the dating scene, that is, freely meeting with various men and kiss&hug romance with boyfriends is still causing polemics.

What you say doesn't refute what I said. I said that Islam "leaves it to people's own preferences and to the customs of each society."

While your experience with muslim lady friends is true about some muslim ladies and their families, it doesn't sum up the experience of over 1,000,000,000 muslims over the world.

By the way, many Christian women experience the exact same situation that you have talked about in your post, as it is more related to culture than to religion, and most customs which are practiced in the Islamic world are not related to religion at all, but were inherited from pre-Islamic cultures in the region.

[Dan Zebiri]

Too BAD for you, islamic propogandist barnasha, muslims in the arabic world are discussing this hot topic, not only at grass-roots level, but also at the clerical (ulema/scholars) level AND by the issuance of fatwas / edicts binding upon the followers of islam.

Muhammad actually said, according to this hadith:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained puberty as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely,

'I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her:

'Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.'

(Sahih Muslim 3425)

When, by sura 33:21, Muhammad is supposedly seen as "a beautiful pattern of conduct" whose every word and action is to be admired and taken seriously, these things have a way of coming back to the faithful muslims to emulate & even OBEY.

"Saudi scholar's fatwa wades into controversy," by Habib Toumi for Gulf News, May 22, 2010 :

Manama: A Saudi scholar has waded into controversy after he said that women could give their milk to men to establish a degree of maternal relations and get around a strict religious ban on mixing between unrelated men and women.

According to Shaikh Abdul Mohsin Al Abaican, a consultant at Saudi Arabia's royal court, a man who often entered a house and came in contact with the womenfolk there should be made symbolically related to the women by drinking milk from one of the women.

Under the fatwa, the act would preclude any sexual relations between the man and the donor woman and her relatives.

This is not 'an isolated hadith' as you would have us believe. This is guidance from Muhammad no less, on how the sexes should mix in a muslim community, under islamic precepts and values.

Nevertheless, it is also PROOF of islam's and muhamamd's bizzareness and weirdness of beliefs and the craziness of its practices.

[Dan Zebiri]

Oh barnasha, your knowledge of islam is pathetic - or perhaps thats also pretend only!

Of course Urinating IS part and parcel of islam!

Have you not heard of the muslim practice of istinjah/istinjak??

Or : How to wash yourself after urination?

Or : That drinking camel's Urine is good for a sick person in islam, for camel's urine is medicine and should be used as a treatment!?

"Thalaba the apostle had captured a slave called Yasar, and he put him in charge of his milch-camels to shepherd them in the neighborhood of al-Jamma. Some men of Qays of Kubba of Bajila came to the apostle suffering from an epidemic and enlarged spleens, and the apostle told them that if they went to the milch camels and drank their milk and their urine they would recover, so off they went.."

From : THE SIRAT RASULULLAH (THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET OF GOD), BY IBN ISHAQ (3), pages 677-678.

More weird absurdities can be found in the Sunna (Traditions) of Muhammad! This is just on 'urine'...

[barnasha]

Oh barnasha, your knowledge of islam is pathetic - or perhaps thats also pretend only!

since you resort to attacking my character, its just more proof you are full of hot air.

some of us are sincere people.

[Dan Zebiri]

Get off it, barnasha, you give yourself more credit indeed..!

Then just deal with th FACTS of the matters of absurdity in Islam that I raised for clarification. That of ADULT SUCKLING - Rada'a, and of the endorsement to drink camel's urine as a medicine by muhammad!

Don't try to distract from the hard issues of the irrelevance and absurdity of islam to modern society that were raised above.

I quote the relevant Hadith sahih, here :

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed.

(Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3424)

and:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained puberty as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely,

'I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her:

'Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.'

(Sahih Muslim 3425)

So, according to islam and muhammad, unrelated muslim males and females in the company of one another, should be suckled by those females, and drink their milk from their breasts so that they can be together! This is the islamic way.

This endorsed practice of islam and the sunna is absurdity of the highest order...to say the least (..and is not slander).

[barnasha]

Get off it, barnasha, you give yourself more credit indeed..!

Then just deal with th FACTS of the matters of absurdity in Islam that I raised for clarification.

The most absurd things I hear about islam come from you.. never heard of any muslims talking about or performing this practice.

you should use all that energy you spend hating and do something loving instead.

[Dan Zebiri]

Stop fudging shamelessly with your non-answer, barnasha..and just larn to give an intelligent reply to my post which is reproduced here:

Then just deal with th FACTS of the matters of absurdity in Islam that I raised for clarification. That of ADULT SUCKLING - Rada'a, and of the endorsement to drink camel's urine as a medicine by muhammad!

Don't try to distract from the hard issues of the irrelevance and absurdity of islam to modern society that were raised above.

I quote the relevant Hadith sahih, here :

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I see on the face of Abu Hudhaifa (signs of disgust) on entering of Salim (who is an ally) into (our house), whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Suckle him. She said: How can I suckle him as he is a grown-up man? Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) smiled and said: I already know that he is a young man. 'Amr has made this addition in his narration that he participated in the Battle of Badr and in the narration of Ibn 'Umar (the words are): Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) laughed.

(Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3424)

and:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hadhaifa, lived with him and his family in their house. She (i. e. the daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Salim has attained puberty as men attain, and he understands what they understand, and he enters our house freely,

'I, however, perceive that something (rankles) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to her:

'Suckle him and you would become unlawful for him, and (the rankling) which Abu Hudhaifa feels in his heart will disappear. She returned and said: So I suckled him, and what (was there) in the heart of Abu Hudhaifa disappeared.'

(Sahih Muslim 3425)

So, according to islam and muhammad, unrelated muslim males and females in the company of one another, should be suckled by those females, and drink their milk from their breasts so that they can be together! This is the islamic way.

This endorsed practice of islam and the sunna is absurdity of the highest order...to say the least (..and is not slander).

[barnasha]

If i recall correctly, I asked you to point out the relevance on this in Islamic teachings, something which you've failed to do thus far... look forward to that info.

actually i have asked you numerous times and your non answer proves my point

refer to post 20

[Dan Zebiri]

Actually, you barnasha have equally and even more times have failed pathetically to provide me with any sensible answers to many of my previous questions. Much less to have 'corrected me' in any way...!

Your avoidance only proves your ignorance and unbalanced islamophilia.

Well, for your and all the muslims' information, this issue of 'Adult suckling' is directly relevant to the islamic condition known as 'Khalwa' ie.'excluded seclusion', between supposedly an adult male and female who are not related by blood.

It is illegal in islamic sharia law for tow such people above to be together. Unless they 'become related as brother as sister' then they supposedly can be together in private.

This thing has already been discussed widely, and here is an excerpt of such:
"Breast milk sons"

In order to reduce the difficulties of strict sex segregation in modern life, some clerics issued a fatwa encouraging women to provide breast milk to any man with whom she comes into regular contact. Abdel Mohsen Obeikan, a renowned Islamic scholar, an adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, said in 2010: "The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman. He should drink it and then becomes a relative of the family, a fact that allows him to come in contact with the women without breaking Islam's rules about mixing."


Breast milk kinship is indeed considered to be as good as a blood relationship in Islam and this way, for example foreign drivers can mix freely with all members of the family without breaking the Islamic rule which does not allow mixing of genders. Another cleric disagreed, saying the man should take the milk straight from her breast.


How have some rational muslim women responded to such absurdity? here you go:



The issue moved one female Saudi blogger to ridicule:



"The whole issue just shows how clueless men are. All this back and forth between sheiks and not one bothers to ask a woman if it's logical, let alone possible to breastfeed a grown man five fulfilling breast milk meals. Moreover, the thought of a huge hairy face at a woman's breast does not evoke motherly or even brotherly feelings. It could go from the grotesque to the erotic but definitely not maternal."

The "breast milk" fatwa became a rallying point for right-to-drive activists. They have threatened to start breastfeeding professional drivers, so that they can travel without violating segregation laws: "We either be allowed to drive or breastfeed foreigners.

Read it in full here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%2...te-Shaheen-491

and reported here :

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-...g-bid-1.643431

Even muslims find islamic teaching like this as absurd and nonsensical. It is truly a fully outdated and irrelevant ideology that deserved to be abandoned and left behind to the stone age!

If i recall correctly, I asked you to point out the relevance on this in Islamic teachings, something which you've failed to do thus far... look forward to that info.

actually i have asked you numerous times and your non answer proves my point

refer to post 20

[barnasha]

Dan, provide some examples of how this is relevant, or even mentioned in current societies.

I dare you.