Prayer

[Carrikature]

To start with, some scripture reference:

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him" (1 John 5:14-15).

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

"…The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective" (James 5:16).

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18).

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express" (Romans 8:26).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18).

"You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." (James 4:2-3).

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins'" (Mark 11:22-25).

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Personally, I have a hard time praying. I've pretty much quit praying altogether. Why? It seems to be pointless. How many times have you prayed and gotten no response? It happens all the time. The rationalization most people use is something along the lines of "sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes wait". That's all well and good, except there's no way to know what the actual answer is. Sometimes the answer could be 'yes' but in a completely unexpected manner. The answers 'no' and 'wait' are indistinguishable from another, sometimes even from a sufficiently obscure 'yes'.

So then what? People will tell you that the purpose of prayer is really to align ourselves with God's will. That would certainly fit well with certain verses (1 John 5:14-15, James 4:2-3). I could understand if the purpose of prayer is solely to learn to accept God's will. This is already my general outlook on life, that God is going to do whatever He wants to do (or more succintly, that God's will cannot be thwarted). That brings up another question, though. If I already accept God's will in all things, what reason is there left to pray?

Additionally, other verses (Mark 11:22-25, John 14:13-14) seem to indicate that we should rightfully expect to get what we ask for. Even more, Mark 11 somewhat points to "just needing more faith". That's another common rationalization, that God doesn't answer prayers because our faith is too small. That seems counter-intuitive, though. I assume we agree that faith should not be blind, yet somehow I'm expected to gain faith by not receiving any response. (I'd be happy with a definite 'no' as opposed to just crickets.)

I've heard of the patron/client concept, but I can't really accept it either (I only know what little was in the eblock this time). Basically, there was a broker (Moses, Elijah, etc) that conversed with God on a regular basis, but the majority would never receive any communication. My question is this, what set apart those 'brokers'? Certainly, God may have his reasoning for whom he chooses, but it would make it pretty clear that I'm not one of those he's chosen. Based on that, I have no hope of my prayers being heard. What, then, the point of continuing?

The conclusion I've reached so far is that we're supposed to pray often (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, Ephesians 6:18, Philippians 4:6-7), but that the reality is that our prayers may not be heard. If they are heard, they may be unanswered unless they fit within God's plan. Essentially, you get what you want if God was going to do it anyway. Otherwise, you pray to 'cast your cares upon Him' so to speak, but it doesn't really change anything other than making you feel better.

Please prove me wrong.

[Alcoth]

Hrm...

Prayer is part of daily life. I pray in my head and out loud. I pray for forgiveness of my transgressions and for the health of others. I pray for strength and humility. Shoot, I substitute prayer for frustration when someone cuts me off in traffic.

Maybe God doesn't hear it all. Maybe he does. I'm going to become a "feeler" for a moment here but here it is (hopefully not coming across as boastful)...

Prayer is my interpersonal line of communication to God. Even if he doesn't hear it, I am a better person because of my actions. I'm calmer, forgiving, helpful, loving, caring. If I pray for strength in a situation, I almost always find it. Sure, God knows that I pray and he knows everything else I will do in my life but heck, who am I to say that the plan for me would have been the same given the possibility that I had a different personality?

Does it seem strange that when I pray for these things, I find them? I don't pray for money or power. I pray for the insight to discern opportunity. Lord, if you are trying to tell me something, please help me see it.

Hopefully that was coherent. Thoughts?

[RBerman]

Personally, I have a hard time praying. I've pretty much quit praying altogether. Why? It seems to be pointless. How many times have you prayed and gotten no response? It happens all the time.

Depends on what qualifies as a "response." I rarely get a "feeling" (emotional, spiritual, whatever you want to call it) of a message from God while or after praying. God's communication to me is primarily through Scripture: both the specific words that I'm reading, as well as the understanding and application that I take away from reading or meditating on Scripture.

If by response you're talking more about outcomes, let me suggest that supplicatory prayer (asking for this or that to happen) should be a minority of our prayer lives. Most of our prayers should be confession of sin, praise for God's attributes, and thanksgiving for what God has already done, especially in the work of Christ. If you find that you're praying for stuff that usually doesn't happen, James 4:2-3 (which you cited) suggests that's a good time to review the kinds of things you're requesting.

[Carrikature]

Prayer is part of daily life. I pray in my head and out loud. I pray for forgiveness of my transgressions and for the health of others. I pray for strength and humility. Shoot, I substitute prayer for frustration when someone cuts me off in traffic.

That's cool. That would seem to tie in well with the passages from Phillipians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5.

Maybe God doesn't hear it all. Maybe he does. I'm going to become a "feeler" for a moment here but here it is (hopefully not coming across as boastful)...

Prayer is my interpersonal line of communication to God. Even if he doesn't hear it, I am a better person because of my actions. I'm calmer, forgiving, helpful, loving, caring. If I pray for strength in a situation, I almost always find it. Sure, God knows that I pray and he knows everything else I will do in my life but heck, who am I to say that the plan for me would have been the same given the possibility that I had a different personality?

Do you think this is God working within you? Or is it possible that it's simply a useful manner to deflect thoughts/feelings that would normally bother you? The second option is definitely useful in its own right, but my personality is such that I would receive much less benefit.

Does it seem strange that when I pray for these things, I find them? I don't pray for money or power. I pray for the insight to discern opportunity. Lord, if you are trying to tell me something, please help me see it.

I don't know. Part of the difficulty is discerning coincidence from destiny. I don't know how your brain functions. I've heard some describe that they feel their mind is full of "noise", or thoughts/feelings/etc all clamoring for attention which makes it difficult to stop second-guessing yourself. Prayer, like meditation, can have the effect of silencing that noise, allowing you to think more clearly. In your case, does prayer "silence the noise" or does God actually impart some knowledge to make the way clearer?

[themuzicman]

Prayer is an expression of faith. I think part of the problem is Christianity in the US has almost totally become sort of a feelings based interaction with God, which more often is simply an emotional response to having done something they think is good and right.

This isn't to say that people never hear from God, but I've heard more than one person say that they "heard from God" something that was clearly wrong and sinful and led them down the wrong path.

As I said at first, prayer is first and foremost an act of faith. We pray because we believe that God hears us and has commanded us to worship Him. And I think that ought to be more the focus of our prayer, not asking God for things for ourselves or others, but to ask for wisdom and to give God His due in praise and glory and thanksgiving.

Michael

[Carrikature]

Depends on what qualifies as a "response." I rarely get a "feeling" (emotional, spiritual, whatever you want to call it) of a message from God while or after praying. God's communication to me is primarily through Scripture: both the specific words that I'm reading, as well as the understanding and application that I take away from reading or meditating on Scripture.

I don't know what qualifies as a response. I think that's part of my question. I can understand the sentiment that God's communication is through Scripture. I have to ask, though, given what we see here on this forum, how can we be sure our understanding and application is correct? It seems all too easy to walk away from Scripture reading with an impression of "this is what God told me".

If by response you're talking more about outcomes, let me suggest that supplicatory prayer (asking for this or that to happen) should be a minority of our prayer lives. Most of our prayers should be confession of sin, praise for God's attributes, and thanksgiving for what God has already done, especially in the work of Christ. If you find that you're praying for stuff that usually doesn't happen, James 4:2-3 (which you cited) suggests that's a good time to review the kinds of things you're requesting.

There's two parts to this. I'll talk about frequency of supplicatory prayers first.

Ephesians 6 and Philippians 4 both indicate that we should bring all our requests to God through prayer. I would agree that there should be consideration of what we're asking for. As you point out, James 4 (and to some extent 1 John 5) indicates that our motivations should be questioned and adjusted as necessary. To transition that into outcomes: it would seem reasonable that if one were following 1 John 5 and James 4, you would expect to receive a positive outcome from supplicatory prayer. The referenced verses from James 5, John 14, Mark 11 and 1 John 5 all point to this. So while I can concede your point about frequency, I don't really find an indication that frequency should affect how often (or if) our prayers are answered.



I think you've made some valid points. Thanks for responding.

[Carrikature]

Prayer is an expression of faith. I think part of the problem is Christianity in the US has almost totally become sort of a feelings based interaction with God, which more often is simply an emotional response to having done something they think is good and right.

This isn't to say that people never hear from God, but I've heard more than one person say that they "heard from God" something that was clearly wrong and sinful and led them down the wrong path.

As I said at first, prayer is first and foremost an act of faith. We pray because we believe that God hears us and has commanded us to worship Him. And I think that ought to be more the focus of our prayer, not asking God for things for ourselves or others, but to ask for wisdom and to give God His due in praise and glory and thanksgiving.

Michael

I mostly agree. My problem is that the section I bolded no longer applies to me.

[supton]

On what basis do you think God is no longer listening to you?

[justgin]

Here's just some thoughts about prayer from my own personal experience. I, too, wonder how I can know for sure that God is hearing and answering my prayers. There are times when I am aware that he is hearing me (not a feeling, but a perception) when I pray. When this happens, it is usually because my prayer is fervent (the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much) and because of that fervency I am approaching God with a more pure faith (ie: the man with the demoniac son saying "I do believe, help my unbelief!").

I could give you many personal examples that show what I mean. Here is one. (I'm a nurse.) One night at work, 2 hours into my 12 hour shift, I got a migraine headache. I took several Ibuprofen and coffee. It made me nauseated. So now I had a splitting headache and nausea and 10 hours left in my shift plus 1 1/2 hour drive home. There was nothing I could do but pray. (This is a good place to be, although it certainly doesn't seem like it at the time. There is also no time to ponder questions like you are asking, because you need an answer urgently.) I REALLY needed God to hear my prayer and relieve my pain and nausea miraculously. I cannot approach a holy God apart from Christ, the Word. So, before praying, I thought of one of my favorite scriptures in Romans: "....whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved....for He is rich unto all who call upon Him..." Then I began to pray for God to save me from this migraine and nausea, looking to this verse to support my reason to believe that God would do what He promised. I began meditating on this verse over and over in my mind while fervently asking God to help me. Within minutes of doing this, I perceived God's presence near me at the same time that the pain and nausea began to leave. The sense of urgency within me was replaced by peace and quiet assurance that I had obtained what I had asked for. I was filled with thankfulness to God. This really was a miracle to me. (I'm not sure how you make the distinction between feeling and perception here; to me, this was my perception of God's presence, not a feeling.)

I'm sure this is not the academic answer you might have hoped for. But I'd also like to say that I don't think questions like you are asking do much good, because they cause you to focus on doubt, which makes you feel "what's the point?". Meanwhile, life happens and crises emerge at inconvenient times, like the one I shared above; and in the midst of these crises I sometimes KNOW that God does hear and answer my prayers. This doesn't happen all the time though. Remembering the times it has happened makes me hopeful enough to not give up on prayer.

[Teallaura]

To start with, some scripture reference:

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him" (1 John 5:14-15).

*emphasis mine

In a very real sense, this verse has more to do with faith than prayer. Faith is not believing God exists - the cliche is true that even demons know that. Faith is trusting His word/promise - trusting Him to do what He said He would.

My own suspicion is that this is frequently the reason God seems not to answer. He's not (necessarily) testing faith so much as building it. Like any other muscle, it only gets stronger with use. Trusting Him when He's not making any sense to you definitely builds faith. It also stinks - but He never said you had to like it. Nobody likes castor oil, either, but it has saved lives.

Note the italicized bit. John doesn't say 'we know we'll get it'; he says "we know that we have" it. I know I have money in the bank (for once) but it's all pixels - no cash backs up my account. Therefore I can't see it, can't taste it (), feel it, et al, but I know it's there. Why? Because I have confidence that when the time comes the bank will honor my claim and give me cash.

'Knowing we have it' is trusting that God has credited our account and that when the time comes, He will honor the claim. Here's the important part - absolutely all of that is based on His reliability, not our merit. When we don't trust His reliability we have no reason to expect the claim to be honored simply because no deposit was ever made. The deposit is contingent on faith - exactly as the verse contends.

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

The promise here is comfort, not getting what you ask for. Again, contingent on trusting God. Can He work without your faith? Yes. Will He? Not usually for the believer. The goal is different - we aren't seeking salvation 'cause we have that. We are seeking to be like Jesus - and His faith led Him to the cross.

The two things are inter-related. It's nearly impossible to trust anything if you are anxious and God is well aware of that. So in this verse we're told He'll handle that anxiety if we'll let Him. 'Do not be anxious' is probably not a command to make the feeling go away instantly but rather to let go of it - to not cling to/obsess over - our anxiety. Until we let go, we're not going to be relieved of it. God isn't playing tug-of-war here; He's saying let go already.

This one is also the easiest to confirm - heck, psychologists give the exact same advice. Why? Because the obsessing just digs a deeper hole; it can never get you out of that hole. The edict 'do not be afraid' is the equivalent of 'stop digging, silly!' Once you stop digging, you can start climbing - or in this case, He can pull you out of the hole.

"…The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective" (James 5:16).

One of the hardest to confirm because you kinda have to be a good way down that sanctification road before you see the effect. Culturally, we really don't talk much about the outcome of prayer - and when we do it's often cliched. Makes it much, much tougher to see the prayers of the righteous other than ourselves being fulfilled. Honestly, it's easier when looking at the ministries abroad for me - there I see some serious fulfillment occurring. They're also in the real heat of the battle - their trials make mine look like pre-school.

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18).

Not sure why you included this one. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't contain any promise to fulfill (although I would certainly concede the implied promise). It's basically 'get off the couch, son and hit the gym'. Prayer is oftentimes serious work.

"In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express" (Romans 8:26).

If you've ever been totally broken, this verse needs no explanation. It's God Himself picking up where we are incapable of continuing.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

Purification is not sanctification - getting out all the stains is not the same as using Scotch Guard. Purification is no promise that we won't get dirty again. What this verse promises is that God will scrub out the new stains when we make them (which we will hopefully eventually quit doing so much!).

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18).

This one parallels the 'don't be anxious' edict. It's a good idea to quit digging - it's a better idea to start climbing. It's a tough exercise to replace worry with joy - but if you leave the anxiety opening open, something is bound to fill it in. Better to fill it yourself with joy, huh?

'Be joyful, pray all the time and be grateful' - these are more than just bullet points, this is the recipe. It's also a danged site tougher to do than anyone imagines. Ultimately, God's will here seems to be that we enjoy our lives in Him - which would be the logical outcome of exercising these edicts. Joy isn't giddiness - it's an outlook. Prayer isn't wheedling - it's conversation. Gratitude isn't merely being polite - it's a way of opening ourselves. Together, they are how we learn to relate to each other and to God the right/best way.

"You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." (James 4:2-3).

God's promise to give whatever we ask for is very much like your parent's promise that you can have anything you want at the toy store - it's somewhat hyperbolic in that it doesn't include evil, bad, greedy, cruel, selfish, or harmful requests. That is understood and shouldn't require explanation any more than your parent's promise would include toys for kids much older than you (Legos and two year olds = bad idea), things that are dangerous (think three year old and trampoline), or things that are just absurd (sure kid, you can have the whole store - we can mortgage the house and both work two jobs).

Sure, God knows what we need. He also knows we need Him and talking to Him is part of the equation. Therefore, yup, He expects a formal request - it's a bare minimum acknowledgment that He's there. And it's one way to start a conversation, especially with the stubborn ones ( Who, me? Me.).

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins'" (Mark 11:22-25).

Back to the 'know you have it' part. Faith is not optional. Faith is the check we deposit - God is the banker who credits the account and hands out the actual cash when the time comes.

Yes, Junior, you have to share your toys. You're never gonna be like Christ if you refuse to forgive. Share our toys and we'll get you some more; Forgive as you have been forgiven and know that you will be forgiven as the need arises - again (it'd be nice if perfection followed salvation instantly). Dang, Mom and Dad were right about that sharing thing after all.

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Again, the 'not asking something you know danged well you aren't gonna get cause it's a bad thing' is understood. Notice He doesn't say 'instantly' - He's the Son of God, not Quaker Instant Grits. 'In My name' is not a magic formula - it's Christ glorifying God.

Also understood here is faith - believing He will do what He said He would. We stink at this. I remember a story of a youth rally that was in danger of being rained out - in fact, the rain was bearing down on the event. Several preachers got up and prayed for the rain not to come - but with the 'if it is Your will' caveat. One African American lady minister stood up and prayed "Lord, we're here doing Your work and You know how much work went into this, so don't let that rain fall here. Amen." She refused an umbrella as the clouds neared. Then the clouds split up - raining to either side but not on the rally.

That's faith - trusting that He would, not merely that He could. We tend to couch our requests so we aren't embarrassed - or stuck trying to explain why God didn't do what we asked. She knew she wasn't asking out of school and she trusted Him to keep His word. So few of us really do that.

Personally, I have a hard time praying. I've pretty much quit praying altogether. Why? It seems to be pointless. How many times have you prayed and gotten no response? It happens all the time. The rationalization most people use is something along the lines of "sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes wait". That's all well and good, except there's no way to know what the actual answer is. Sometimes the answer could be 'yes' but in a completely unexpected manner. The answers 'no' and 'wait' are indistinguishable from another, sometimes even from a sufficiently obscure 'yes'.

You're over thinking here. Yes may come in an unexpected form, but not an unrecognizable one. No and 'hang on a minute' are easily distinguished - waiting is eventually over; no never happens. The answer is distinguishable - so long as you expect to see it. Faith, the other white meat.

Yeah, yeah, I know - it isn't always easy. It's not s'posed to be. Faith is like chin ups - once ain't enough. One, two, three (this is when I fall off the bar and get dragged to the hospital)... Forty, forty one, forty two (let's hear it for good PE classes)... Ninety, ninety one, ninety two (maybe joining the Armed Forces wasn't the best idea)... One hundred! Okay, rest a minute then let's start the next set...

So then what? People will tell you that the purpose of prayer is really to align ourselves with God's will. That would certainly fit well with certain verses (1 John 5:14-15, James 4:2-3). I could understand if the purpose of prayer is solely to learn to accept God's will. This is already my general outlook on life, that God is going to do whatever He wants to do (or more succintly, that God's will cannot be thwarted). That brings up another question, though. If I already accept God's will in all things, what reason is there left to pray?

And here you're under thinking (don't ya hate when that happens?). If you won't do what He says do, do you have any legit claim to accepting His will? How many verses did you just cite which command prayer? Sometimes, we have to do things just because He says so - not from any capriciousness on God's part (God doesn't do 'capricious') but because we can't see the point for ourselves. Not knowing why is not the same thing as there being no reason why. I see two reasons here for you to pray: 1) because He told you to and 2) because you think it's pointless and will never get past that unless you pray (instant answers are not promised - don't forget that 'cause you really aren't likely to get them right now. Experience speaking, and still smarting from said experience - ouch... )

Additionally, other verses (Mark 11:22-25, John 14:13-14) seem to indicate that we should rightfully expect to get what we ask for. Even more, Mark 11 somewhat points to "just needing more faith". That's another common rationalization, that God doesn't answer prayers because our faith is too small. That seems counter-intuitive, though. I assume we agree that faith should not be blind, yet somehow I'm expected to gain faith by not receiving any response. (I'd be happy with a definite 'no' as opposed to just crickets.)

Yup, and it is not counter intuitive - faith that He will do X ends the second He does X. Five, six, seven....

Crickets can sing while we wait - that's not the same as no response. The no becomes evident (usually when we realize we have asked for something stupid or when we find we have something better) even if it takes a while... Eight, nine, ten... It's pretty danged obvious when waiting ends - we get what we asked for. It's also when we lay there gasping in gratitude for the reprieve and hoping the coach is about to blow the whistle.

I've heard of the patron/client concept, but I can't really accept it either (I only know what little was in the eblock this time). Basically, there was a broker (Moses, Elijah, etc) that conversed with God on a regular basis, but the majority would never receive any communication. My question is this, what set apart those 'brokers'? Certainly, God may have his reasoning for whom he chooses, but it would make it pretty clear that I'm not one of those he's chosen. Based on that, I have no hope of my prayers being heard. What, then, the point of continuing?

maybe someone who buys that will come along to answer. My knowledge of the concept is also limited but if this is a correct synopsis, I'm not buying. He may not write on a couple stone tablets for ya, but He also never ignores you (it just feels like it sometimes - by the way, feelings lie). Communication is more than mere speech.

The conclusion I've reached so far is that we're supposed to pray often (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, Ephesians 6:18, Philippians 4:6-7), but that the reality is that our prayers may not be heard. If they are heard, they may be unanswered unless they fit within God's plan. Essentially, you get what you want if God was going to do it anyway. Otherwise, you pray to 'cast your cares upon Him' so to speak, but it doesn't really change anything other than making you feel better.

Please prove me wrong.

Nothing you cited supports the 'prayers not being heard' contention. No and wait are no more 'not being heard' than 'yes' is. God hears His children pray whether He chooses to respond the way they want or not.

Get get what you want contingent on: A) it's not something stupid that is clearly contrary to His will and/or commands and B) you actually trust Him to do it. Actually, as in really, authentically, genuinely, not just a fuzzy feeling, truly believe that He will - actually, not that He will but that He has (eternality rears its ever confusing head). Money's in the bank, even if all we see is a deposit slip. The first one's easy - and the most often misused. The second is the true toughie and most often ignored. It's not 'God was gonna anyway'; it's 'you made a good request and logged that deposit straight into the checkbook - you trusted He'd do it/did it (Eternality, a great ticket to insanity if you think about it too hard).

Sorry, but that is the dumbest, yet most common, piece of nonsense - making you feel better IS A CHANGE. In fact it may be the answer you thought you didn't get. There's a fourth category: not that, but this. Sometimes what we ask for isn't what we really want or need. We may not get what precisely we requested - we get something better. And yes, that can be making us feel better without changing the situation. The change we think is best isn't always - and it can be extremely difficult to see (been there, done that, got the scars to prove it). The answer isn't 'no' - it's 'this instead'. Feeling better may well be our ticket to dealing with the situation we asked to be changed - as such it's not 'merely making us feel better'; it's changing us so we can handle the situation. "Sometimes He calms the storm, other times He calms His child"* - but both times He responds.


Excuse me now - I have some serious prayer of my own to attend to. I'm gonna take Him up on 1 John 1:9.

*"Sometimes He Calms the Storm", can't remember the artist right now.

[Carrikature]

On what basis do you think God is no longer listening to you?

The short version is that I reached a point about two years ago where I no longer knew what to do with myself. I fully acknowledged that I was not strong enough to beat my own problems. I needed God to do it, and I told him so. Two years later, I still got nothing.

It's certainly possible that the answer was 'wait', but how would I know? At what point do you decide the answer must have been 'no'?

Here's just some thoughts about prayer from my own personal experience. I, too, wonder how I can know for sure that God is hearing and answering my prayers. There are times when I am aware that he is hearing me (not a feeling, but a perception) when I pray. When this happens, it is usually because my prayer is fervent (the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much) and because of that fervency I am approaching God with a more pure faith (ie: the man with the demoniac son saying "I do believe, help my unbelief!").

I'm sure this is not the academic answer you might have hoped for. But I'd also like to say that I don't think questions like you are asking do much good, because they cause you to focus on doubt, which makes you feel "what's the point?". Meanwhile, life happens and crises emerge at inconvenient times, like the one I shared above; and in the midst of these crises I sometimes KNOW that God does hear and answer my prayers. This doesn't happen all the time though. Remembering the times it has happened makes me hopeful enough to not give up on prayer.

Thank you for your input, justgin. It may be more fair to say that I will not argue that it works for other people, but I'm not convinced it works for me. I can't remember times that it has happened to maintain the hope of which you speak.

[Carrikature]

Just for the record, I provided verses more for use as a reference. I wasn't intending them to be much support for my position, though some of them are.

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him" (1 John 5:14-15).

*emphasis mine

In a very real sense, this verse has more to do with faith than prayer. Faith is not believing God exists - the cliche is true that even demons know that. Faith is trusting His word/promise - trusting Him to do what He said He would.

My own suspicion is that this is frequently the reason God seems not to answer. He's not (necessarily) testing faith so much as building it. Like any other muscle, it only gets stronger with use. Trusting Him when He's not making any sense to you definitely builds faith. It also stinks - but He never said you had to like it. Nobody likes castor oil, either, but it has saved lives.

Granted, this is a common Christian sentiment. However, faith/trust does not build endlessly on itself. Justgin's statements are good examples. Her faith is strengthened by the rememberance of past deeds and the hope for similar outcomes in the future. At some point, there has to be a past deed to rely on. If there has ever been a past deed for me, it is beyond my recollection.

Note the italicized bit. John doesn't say 'we know we'll get it'; he says "we know that we have" it. I know I have money in the bank (for once) but it's all pixels - no cash backs up my account. Therefore I can't see it, can't taste it (), feel it, et al, but I know it's there. Why? Because I have confidence that when the time comes the bank will honor my claim and give me cash.

'Knowing we have it' is trusting that God has credited our account and that when the time comes, He will honor the claim. Here's the important part - absolutely all of that is based on His reliability, not our merit. When we don't trust His reliability we have no reason to expect the claim to be honored simply because no deposit was ever made. The deposit is contingent on faith - exactly as the verse contends.

The deposits were made for years. The claim has yet to be honored.

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

The promise here is comfort, not getting what you ask for. Again, contingent on trusting God. Can He work without your faith? Yes. Will He? Not usually for the believer. The goal is different - we aren't seeking salvation 'cause we have that. We are seeking to be like Jesus - and His faith led Him to the cross.

The two things are inter-related. It's nearly impossible to trust anything if you are anxious and God is well aware of that. So in this verse we're told He'll handle that anxiety if we'll let Him. 'Do not be anxious' is probably not a command to make the feeling go away instantly but rather to let go of it - to not cling to/obsess over - our anxiety. Until we let go, we're not going to be relieved of it. God isn't playing tug-of-war here; He's saying let go already.

This one is also the easiest to confirm - heck, psychologists give the exact same advice. Why? Because the obsessing just digs a deeper hole; it can never get you out of that hole. The edict 'do not be afraid' is the equivalent of 'stop digging, silly!' Once you stop digging, you can start climbing - or in this case, He can pull you out of the hole.

I completely agree with this. I don't deny the usefulness of prayer for others, especially not this facet of prayer. I am not a person that gets anxious about things. Ever. I know how to discern what I can do about a situation, do what I can, put together contingencies, and let it come as it will. There is no anxiety in any of that.

"…The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective" (James 5:16).

One of the hardest to confirm because you kinda have to be a good way down that sanctification road before you see the effect. Culturally, we really don't talk much about the outcome of prayer - and when we do it's often cliched. Makes it much, much tougher to see the prayers of the righteous other than ourselves being fulfilled. Honestly, it's easier when looking at the ministries abroad for me - there I see some serious fulfillment occurring. They're also in the real heat of the battle - their trials make mine look like pre-school.

Your mention of the cliches is a good deal of my frustration. As for seeing fulfillment in others, there is a certain starting point required to see fulfillment. This is actually a central contention for me. It is easy to claim God for every coincidence and vice versa. It is nearly impossible to accurately know which is which. There certainly are times when it is obvious that God was at work, but most of our everyday occurrences are nowhere near that obvious. Mine definitely haven't been. Sure, I could take the stance that God does all of it, but it would be nothing more than a rationalization for me.

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18).

Not sure why you included this one. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't contain any promise to fulfill (although I would certainly concede the implied promise). It's basically 'get off the couch, son and hit the gym'. Prayer is oftentimes serious work.

It's a verse on prayer. As I mentioned at the start, many verses were included simply because they fit the subject matter.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

Purification is not sanctification - getting out all the stains is not the same as using Scotch Guard. Purification is no promise that we won't get dirty again. What this verse promises is that God will scrub out the new stains when we make them (which we will hopefully eventually quit doing so much!).

"Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus" (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18).

This one parallels the 'don't be anxious' edict. It's a good idea to quit digging - it's a better idea to start climbing. It's a tough exercise to replace worry with joy - but if you leave the anxiety opening open, something is bound to fill it in. Better to fill it yourself with joy, huh?

'Be joyful, pray all the time and be grateful' - these are more than just bullet points, this is the recipe. It's also a danged site tougher to do than anyone imagines. Ultimately, God's will here seems to be that we enjoy our lives in Him - which would be the logical outcome of exercising these edicts. Joy isn't giddiness - it's an outlook. Prayer isn't wheedling - it's conversation. Gratitude isn't merely being polite - it's a way of opening ourselves. Together, they are how we learn to relate to each other and to God the right/best way.

RBerman and you both make an important point. It is important not to forget that there are mutliple forms of prayer. Expressing gratitude and asking forgiveness are important parts of the equation. I can't pray expressing gratitude or asking forgiveness if I am no longer convinced that the bolded part is actually happening. Sure, I could do it because "I'm supposed to", but it holds little meaning if it is not heart-felt.

"You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures." (James 4:2-3).

God's promise to give whatever we ask for is very much like your parent's promise that you can have anything you want at the toy store - it's somewhat hyperbolic in that it doesn't include evil, bad, greedy, cruel, selfish, or harmful requests. That is understood and shouldn't require explanation any more than your parent's promise would include toys for kids much older than you (Legos and two year olds = bad idea), things that are dangerous (think three year old and trampoline), or things that are just absurd (sure kid, you can have the whole store - we can mortgage the house and both work two jobs).

Sure, God knows what we need. He also knows we need Him and talking to Him is part of the equation. Therefore, yup, He expects a formal request - it's a bare minimum acknowledgment that He's there. And it's one way to start a conversation, especially with the stubborn ones ( Who, me? Me.).

Agreed.

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins'" (Mark 11:22-25).

Back to the 'know you have it' part. Faith is not optional. Faith is the check we deposit - God is the banker who credits the account and hands out the actual cash when the time comes.

Yes, Junior, you have to share your toys. You're never gonna be like Christ if you refuse to forgive. Share our toys and we'll get you some more; Forgive as you have been forgiven and know that you will be forgiven as the need arises - again (it'd be nice if perfection followed salvation instantly). Dang, Mom and Dad were right about that sharing thing after all.

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Again, the 'not asking something you know danged well you aren't gonna get cause it's a bad thing' is understood. Notice He doesn't say 'instantly' - He's the Son of God, not Quaker Instant Grits. 'In My name' is not a magic formula - it's Christ glorifying God.

Also understood here is faith - believing He will do what He said He would. We stink at this. I remember a story of a youth rally that was in danger of being rained out - in fact, the rain was bearing down on the event. Several preachers got up and prayed for the rain not to come - but with the 'if it is Your will' caveat. One African American lady minister stood up and prayed "Lord, we're here doing Your work and You know how much work went into this, so don't let that rain fall here. Amen." She refused an umbrella as the clouds neared. Then the clouds split up - raining to either side but not on the rally.

That's faith - trusting that He would, not merely that He could. We tend to couch our requests so we aren't embarrassed - or stuck trying to explain why God didn't do what we asked. She knew she wasn't asking out of school and she trusted Him to keep His word. So few of us really do that.

Yeah, I get all that. It really comes back to not getting the cash when the time came.

You're over thinking here. Yes may come in an unexpected form, but not an unrecognizable one. No and 'hang on a minute' are easily distinguished - waiting is eventually over; no never happens. The answer is distinguishable - so long as you expect to see it. Faith, the other white meat.

Waiting is eventually over, sure. But when? At what point do you decide that the waiting will never be over because the answer was no? It's not like we have an indication which is which, this is my whole point. Depending on the request, the opportunity is not there indefinitely.

A good example is my boss. He's been given six months to live because of liver cancer. If I prayed today that he would be fully healed, and he's not instantly healed, then the answer is either 'wait' or 'no', but we don't know which. In six months (I seriously doubt he will last that long), it will be obvious that the answer was 'no' the whole time, but we couldn't know that.

And here you're under thinking (don't ya hate when that happens?). If you won't do what He says do, do you have any legit claim to accepting His will? How many verses did you just cite which command prayer? Sometimes, we have to do things just because He says so - not from any capriciousness on God's part (God doesn't do 'capricious') but because we can't see the point for ourselves. Not knowing why is not the same thing as there being no reason why. I see two reasons here for you to pray: 1) because He told you to and 2) because you think it's pointless and will never get past that unless you pray (instant answers are not promised - don't forget that 'cause you really aren't likely to get them right now. Experience speaking, and still smarting from said experience - ouch... )

You miss what I'm getting at. It's not that I refuse to do what he says and still expect the outcome I want. I did what I was supposed to do and got no outcome. I wasn't questioning then. I'm questioning now, two years down the road with no change.

Nothing you cited supports the 'prayers not being heard' contention.

No, I didn't mention my specific reason to believe that I wasn't being heard.

Get get what you want contingent on: A) it's not something stupid that is clearly contrary to His will and/or commands and B) you actually trust Him to do it. Actually, as in really, authentically, genuinely, not just a fuzzy feeling, truly believe that He will - actually, not that He will but that He has (eternality rears its ever confusing head). Money's in the bank, even if all we see is a deposit slip. The first one's easy - and the most often misused. The second is the true toughie and most often ignored. It's not 'God was gonna anyway'; it's 'you made a good request and logged that deposit straight into the checkbook - you trusted He'd do it/did it (Eternality, a great ticket to insanity if you think about it too hard).

Been there, done that, bounced a check.

Sorry, but that is the dumbest, yet most common, piece of nonsense - making you feel better IS A CHANGE. In fact it may be the answer you thought you didn't get. There's a fourth category: not that, but this. Sometimes what we ask for isn't what we really want or need. We may not get what precisely we requested - we get something better. And yes, that can be making us feel better without changing the situation. The change we think is best isn't always - and it can be extremely difficult to see (been there, done that, got the scars to prove it). The answer isn't 'no' - it's 'this instead'. Feeling better may well be our ticket to dealing with the situation we asked to be changed - as such it's not 'merely making us feel better'; it's changing us so we can handle the situation. "Sometimes He calms the storm, other times He calms His child"* - but both times He responds.

I mentioned that 'feeling better' doesn't help me. Sure, it's a change, and for other people that need it, great. I don't. "Feeling better" is useful when you're mourning the loss of a loved one. "Feeling better" is useful when you're facing turmoil through job change. "Feeling better" about a recurring problem doesn't help the problem go away. It's like putting a band-aid on your elbow when you skinned your knee.

[justgin]

Thank you for your input, justgin. It may be more fair to say that I will not argue that it works for other people, but I'm not convinced it works for me. I can't remember times that it has happened to maintain the hope of which you speak.[/QUOTE]


So, you are looking to make a real connection with God that gives you hope and let's you know that He really is listening to you, that the answers are not just a figment of imagination. I think that's a very honest, worthy, and absolutely necessary search. Otherwise, we might be fooled by the "wrong Jesus".

Have you read any of Jerry Bridge's books? "The Discipline of Grace" is an excellent one. Ask God to reveal Himself to you through scripture. If you already have and are still waiting, then ask God to show you what is holding it up. (Hint: we are always the problem, not God!) Thirty years ago, when I started reading the bible for the first time, His words came alive to me. I perceived his presence while reading it. God ceased to be just a mental concept. He became real to me through scripture. I became convicted of my sin. I had previously thought I was a pretty good person, until I read the bible. Then I knew just how awful my sin was and that I deserved God's wrath. But yet He was being kind and gracious to me, offering me forgiveness.

I'm not saying this applies to you, but I think it needs to be said that we should be careful of the attitude with which we approach God and communicate with Him. When Sarah was told she would have a baby in her old age, she laughed. And she was disciplined for it. When Uzza reached out to steady the Ark, he died. When the children of Israel complained about the manna in the desert, God sent snakes to bite them. Moses was only allowed to see the promised land for striking the rock. Many other examples like this, and all these are examples of God's mercy; He disciplines whom He loves. *IF* you are without discipline, you are not His child. At least, not yet.

[Stax]

I've heard of the patron/client concept, but I can't really accept it either (I only know what little was in the eblock this time).

People are addressing your other points, but I've not seen an adequate answer to this yet. Since it's an area that I'm doing a lot of research in at the moment, I'll see if I can answer your questions.

Basically, there was a broker (Moses, Elijah, etc) that conversed with God on a regular basis,

Essentially correct. A broker is the technical term for someone who is both a patron and a client, since they "broker" services from a (typically greater) patron to their own clients. Another name for this role is "mediator."

David A. deSilva, Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity, p. 57

Sometimes the most important gift a patron could give was access to (and influence with) another patron who actually had power over the benefit being sought. For the sake of clarity, a patron who provides access to another patron for his or her client has been called a "broker"[4] (a classical term for this was mediator).

© source where applicable

Bruce J. Malina, The New Testament World -- Insights from Cultural Anthropology, pp. 95-96

What patrons offer is "favors." A favor refers to some object, good, or action that is either unavailable at all or unavailable at a given time. ... Persons who know how to put prospective clients into contact with the patrons those clients need are called brokers (the Greek name for broker is "mediator"). In the Gospels, Jesus for the most part acts as broker, putting people in contact with their heavenly Patron/Father, the God of Israel. When he sends out his disciples, Jesus commissions them as brokers with the same task he has. And throughout the New Testament, God is described for the most part with the analogy of "patron" in typical Mediterranean patron-client relationship with those who worship Him.

© source where applicable

but the majority would never receive any communication.

This part is a little iffy. What exactly do you mean by "never receive any communication?" Do you mean direct communication, perhaps? because the people would certainly have received indirect communication via the broker(s). Taking the examples of Moses and Elijah, many of God's messages (e.g. judgements) were indeed communicated through them. With Jesus, they certainly received communication from God.

Note that this does not in any way remove the need for prayer or mean that God does not hear your prayers.

My question is this, what set apart those 'brokers'?

They were chosen by God, but do remember the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

Certainly, God may have his reasoning for whom he chooses, but it would make it pretty clear that I'm not one of those he's chosen.

No, you're not. The only broker for God now is Jesus, although as noted above and by Neyrey in Render To God, people such as Paul were brokers between Jesus and the Church. To a lesser extent, we could all be considered brokers between Jesus and non-believers, because we are a method of providing them access to him.

Based on that, I have no hope of my prayers being heard. What, then, the point of continuing?

It most certainly does not support that conclusion. What it does is properly identify the way in which we relate to God and He relates to us, by noting that we are not "intimate" with Him in the ways envisaged by many people in the Western world. With respect to prayer, it helps us to identify the kinds of requests we need to make (and the kind that are appropriate) and demonstrates that God is not obliged to respond (since our sin is a break in the circle dance of grace that determines the patron's future acts). It doesn't mean that our prayers will not be heard -- the opposite conclusion would in fact be supported, since clients frequently sought favours from patrons and requests in our prayers would be the equivalent of such favours.

Now, one more point:

Granted, this is a common Christian sentiment. However, faith/trust does not build endlessly on itself. Justgin's statements are good examples. Her faith is strengthened by the rememberance of past deeds and the hope for similar outcomes in the future. At some point, there has to be a past deed to rely on. If there has ever been a past deed for me, it is beyond my recollection.

Why does the event have to be something that happened to you personally? God has already given us all the proof that we need in Jesus's life, death and resurrection. That is what our faith is built on, not our personal experience(s).

[Carrikature]

People are addressing your other points, but I've not seen an adequate answer to this yet. Since it's an area that I'm doing a lot of research in at the moment, I'll see if I can answer your questions.

Thanks.

It most certainly does not support that conclusion. What it does is properly identify the way in which we relate to God and He relates to us, by noting that we are not "intimate" with Him in the ways envisaged by many people in the Western world. With respect to prayer, it helps us to identify the kinds of requests we need to make (and the kind that are appropriate) and demonstrates that God is not obliged to respond (since our sin is a break in the circle dance of grace that determines the patron's future acts). It doesn't mean that our prayers will not be heard -- the opposite conclusion would in fact be supported, since clients frequently sought favours from patrons and requests in our prayers would be the equivalent of such favours.

So in all, even less of a reason to expect that our requests will be answered. Also, there's a dichotomy between "God is not obliged to respond because of our sin" and "God makes us blameless upon salvation".

Now, one more point:

Why does the event have to be something that happened to you personally? God has already given us all the proof that we need in Jesus's life, death and resurrection. That is what our faith is built on, not our personal experience(s).

Our faith is built on multiple things. In the same way, we have faith in multiple things. I can have faith that I am saved without having faith that my requests will be honored. They're two very separate things. I can trust that God exists without agreeing with what someone else claims God will do. In fact, all of us do that on a fairly regular basis.