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Thread: Charis & Sadaqa, the roads meet

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    elam, do you follow the five pillars of Islam? Do you bow to all of Mohammed's decisions? If not, then you're not a Muslim according to the Koran.
    According to the Quran Jesus & the apostles were Muslims! Anybody that submits themselves to God is a Muslim in Mohammad's book!

    Whose will do you attempt to follow? If your own, then you don't follow Jesus' submission to the will of his Father! Thus you are not a Christian. If you bow to the will of Jesus' Father, then by the definition of Arabic terms you are a Muslim. It ain't rocket science!!!

    I wasn't expecting the stupidity of some here at TWEB. In my early era, the followers of Mohammad were referred to as Mohammedans not Muslims or simply followers of Mohammad.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammedan

    The modern terms Islam & Muslim are simply counter missionary terms that have gained currency in the west in the last 50 or so years...

  2. #12
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elam View Post
    According to the Quran Jesus & the apostles were Muslims! Anybody that submits themselves to God is a Muslim in Mohammad's book!
    And I just quoted the section that stipulates what "submitting to God" entails in Islam. You must submit to Mohammed. You avoided the question about whether or not you are doing that.

    Whose will do you attempt to follow? If your own, then you don't follow Jesus' submission to the will of his Father! Thus you are not a Christian. If you bow to the will of Jesus' Father, then by the definition of Arabic terms you are a Muslim. It ain't rocket science!!!
    I follow God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. A Muslim doesn't do any of that. They think God isn't a father to anyone, that Jesus was just an ordinary prophet, and IIRC that the Holy Spirit is just another name for the angel Gabriel. You are clearly using terms you don't understand.

    I wasn't expecting the stupidity of some here at TWEB. In my early era, the followers of Mohammad were referred to as Mohammedans not Muslims or simply followers of Mohammad.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammedan

    The modern terms Islam & Muslim are simply counter missionary terms that have gained currency in the west in the last 50 or so years...
    You're calling people at TWeb stupid, and you're using wikipedia as your source?

    The irony is palpable. BTW, I gave you the Islamic definition of a Muslim, from the Koran. In Islam that's the exact words of Allah, so you don't get a higher authority. Mohammedan is the term Muslims find problematic, because it implies a worship of Mohammed. Did you know Mohammed claimed to be the first Muslim according to several translations?

    Hilali Khan 6:163 "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

    Saheeh International 6:163 No partner has He. And this I have been commanded, and I am the first [among you] of the Muslims."

    You're the one who is misinformed here elam. You'd do well to read my posts before attempting to jump down my throat. Makes your posts appear to be full of hate.

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  4. #13
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    elam, do you follow the five pillars of Islam? Do you bow to all of Mohammed's decisions? If not, then you're not a Muslim according to the Koran.

    Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. S. 3:31 Pickthall

    If you aren't following Mohammed unquestioningly you aren't a true Muslim according to the Koran.

    Qur'an 4:65—But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

    Qur'an 33:36—It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

    Qur'an 5:101-102—O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most-forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

    That means you aren't a Muslim until you've accepted everything Mohammed taught. You can't be a Christian and Muslim because the two faiths are contradictory at the core. Mohammed taught Muslims to be severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves, Jesus taught people to love even their enemies. Mohammed said that Jesus was not God, while Jesus claimed to be divine.

    When reading/quoting the Quran---I urge people to look at the verses preceding and following the verse quoted to get the context---if not, then the Quran is being misquoted and erroneous assumptions made on the fragmented, out-of-context quote.

    For example--Quran 4:65 is in the context of the munafiqun (hypocrites) specifically mentioned in 4:61---these are people who pretend belief, but behave unethically...and when they get into trouble---come to the Prophet seeking justice. The Quran is advising that all people must be dealt with justly as only God knows their hearts. Perhaps Just dealings may open their hearts to conviction.

    Quran 5:101-102 is in reference to the pre-Islamic superstitious beliefs---specified in verse 5:103. Verse 101 says that questions are welcome and answers will be given---and this was indeed the case. The Quranic revelation was interactive and while it does not record the questions that were asked...the answers are recorded.....which is why context is very important.

    and this (interactive-ness) is the context of verse 33:36---the question is about the Prophet's adopted son and his marriage/divorce---and it is in this context that this verse was revealed. You can read the verses that follow to get the story behind verse 33:36.
    There is another context to these verses (v33:35)---the equality of men and women. Most languages are androcentric (default masculine gender) and this was pointed out by some of the women. This revelation comes in this context and these verses specifically and very pointedly include "women" to emphasize gender equality.

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    The terms Muslim/muslim ....and Charis

    The Quran uses many concept-words and the term "muslim" in the Quran is not a label for a group--but rather it is about the intentions/heart or attitude. In practice (in society) it is a Label for a group---There is "Muslim" in the context of Sharia (law) because Sharia applies to Muslims only....and so one first has to define who is the "Muslim" to whom it applies.....

    The Quranic term refers to the spirit/intent as in those who submit to God's will. In the case of the creation that does not have free-will---such as mountains, earth, etc ---these are "muslim" because they automatically submit to God's will/God's laws (as they have no will of their own). God's laws are all the laws of nature and human nature that govern us as well as our environment. In this context, babies are "muslim" because their ego and free-will is not yet fully developed and so they are automatically aligned to God's will. (according to the concept of Fitra---human nature).

    This may have some similarity to the RCC idea of Charis--self-emptying so as to fill with grace.....?....but there is another concept in the Quran which may be closer. The (Arabic)word "Ihsan". There are 3 spiritual levels and Islam (submission) is the lowest because it entails submitting to God's will/God's laws---and this can be done without much thought. But to think and understand is very important because without it, we can fall into superstitions (the condition of pre-islamic Arabia) so, Iman (Faith/Trust) is necessary and this means one is to use our intellect and reason to arrive at heartfelt conviction. Heartfelt conviction is good and necessary for spiritual wellbeing but to be of benefit to all of God's creation (which is our obligation as Trustees)---this conviction must be transformed into right action and this is Ihsan (excellence). It is to conduct oneself as if we see God, but if not, then to understand that God sees us.

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    @ elam
    Right to lineage/identity (nasl) (subject of Kohen)
    Think-by-proxy

    The Sunni/Shia split occurred because there was a dispute as to who would succeed as leader after the Prophet (pbuh) (The Prophet was chosen by the community of Yathrib) When it came time to decide on the next leader there was a split. The question of legitimacy occured. It was easier to convince people of legitimacy if there was a connection to the family of the Prophet....later, the Abbasid (Sunni) and the Fatimid (Shia) dynasties both used descent as a means for legitimacy. The king of Jordan also claims descent from the family of the Prophet(pbuh). The Sharia protects the right to one's identity both for adults as well as children---so a child who is adopted---still retains his name and origins. Yet, identity-constructs can be abused and one has to beware of excess and ego......The Shia have a concept of an Imamate--a spiritual leader who is from the line of the family of the Prophet---but since he does not exist, the practice is the same as Sunni---both use scholars

    The use of Scholars can be abused if people do not use their intellect but blindly follow others. The Quran does not encourage blind belief as this can cause one to fall into "Shirk" (superstitions)---on the other hand, it is difficult to verify everything. Islam is a "way of life" and an average person is so busy living and fulfilling his obligations---it is simpler to follow. So there is an element of "thinking-by-proxy"---let the scholars figure things out and we---the average person, simply follow their conclusions.....So debates about difficult issues such as medical and bio-ethics, Finance and economic ethics, ethical governance...and so forth are left upto Scholars to conclude. Fortunately, Islam is not an "organized" religion with a hierarchical Church system---so people can choose opinions or conclusions (somewhat). Islam is more of an "organic" system....a people's religion.....?....

    So "Scholars" such as Abdal-Wahab get followers known as the Wahabi (or Salafi---depending) who advocate for a "Pure" Islam. Its been labelled as a reformist/reactionary movement ---but its alliance with the Saudi monarchy who in turn are allied with the U.S. makes it used/abused for extreme political purposes......creating headaches for the rest of us Muslims.....

    ...So, as the Prophet recommended, to seek knowledge is a duty of all Muslims for this is the only way to make intelligent choices....

  7. #16
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    @elam
    Many of my thoughts are unformulated and I am still making up my mind on some issues, so I am using you to bounce ideas off of, and I hope you do the same and share your ideas and concerns....

    Exclusivity/Property---
    My concern is with all the groups---Nations, ethnicity, families...as for family, the concern was sparked by your comment about homelessness. Does the "family" have the right to kick someone out into the street because they have a problem with the behavior---such as alcoholism, addiction etc. On the other hand, the safety and security of the other members of the family are also important considerations....and rights. There should be a better way for us (community and family) to handle troubled human beings without throwing them away? I also have misgivings about the nation-state and national borders...etc. There should be a better balance between our need for security and our obligation towards compassion and mercy...of 114 surah, 113 Surah of the Quran begin with the words "In the name of God the most compassionate, the most merciful". So, to be true to these values...one needs to think of a way of community building that cares for the needy while also providing for the support of the caregivers...since I am Muslim---I look at historical examples of (Muslim) community building, for ideas....but care for the needy is an important value for all religions and historical religions have practiced good community building in pre-modern times....so there can be a variety of ideas....

    Proud Catholic/Multiculture---I agree that different religions have their own meta-narratives that give them a particular world-view. Such diversity makes our engagement with the world more interesting. But---it also makes groups different. Though humanity and its nature and needs are not all that different from one group to the other, the interpretations and implementations of our (common) values may take on variety....just as they vary from generation to generation also.....But if we are to be true to our "way"---we need to respect our own values so that we can respect those of others. The present multiculture system does not allow for this--we are all required to homogenize into a public monoculture....and in an age of globalization, if there is going to be only one dominant "culture" in the public space---whose is it going to be?...is a question that distresses everyone. So, perhaps Pluralism may be a better way than Secularism......?....Religious identities are already global (at least for the major world religions)...and so these would provide a better platform for identity-constructs and group-building with the added benefit of encouraging humanity towards its potential for excellence and balanced altruism...?.....

  8. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Wow. Methinks thou protesteth way too freaking much.

    I asked a simple question. I will show your answer to others so they can make a decision. I was actually on your side until I just read your over the top rant. Others have said that you seem more muslim than Christian, I said you might be trying to use muslim terms to talk to a muslim. But after that complete rant, I am not so sure. Not my decision though.
    If you had said that in the first place, instead of your postered puff-chested aggressive rant, I wouldn't have needed to make a 100% scriptural defense of the Christian position!

    As it was, your attack fumed me.

    If what you say is sincere, you should have contacted me via private mail.

    If you are sincere, I thank you for your support in my attempt to use Arabic terminology to communicate western Christian ideas.

    --------------------

    two things you moderators need to discuss...

    I suspect you aren't aware of it, but it is something you moderators should definitely discuss. TWEB is gaining a disreputable reputation in numerous conservative circles for its bias.

    My recent experience via Mozilla of advice that TWEB was a source of malware, adware etc concerns me, and I presume others who have received the notice...
    Last edited by elam; 03-03-2017 at 11:58 AM.

  9. #18
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elam View Post
    If you had said that in the first place, instead of your postered puff-chested aggressive rant, I wouldn't have needed to make a 100% scriptural defense of the Christian position!

    As it was, your attack fumed me.

    If what you say is sincere, you should have contacted me via private mail.
    the reason I brought it up in public was because you made your statements in public and other members have expressed concerns about you and they deserved to see your answer.

    If you are sincere, I thank you for your support in my attempt to use Arabic terminology to communicate western Christian ideas.
    I have no idea if that is what you were doing. It is what you now claim. but your outburst has made me wonder.

    --------------------

    two things you moderators need to discuss...

    I suspect you aren't aware of it, but it is something you moderators should definitely discuss. TWEB is gaining a disreputable reputation in numerous conservative circles for its bias.
    1. Tweb has always been it's own. We don't kowtow to anyone.
    2. What the heck are you even talking about? We are too biased for conservatives? In what manner?
    3. Nothing is keeping anyone here. We have been around for 14 years now.

    My recent experience via Mozilla of advice that TWEB was a source of malware, adware etc concerns me, and I presume others who have received the notice...
    Then you should probably not come here.

  10. #19
    tWebber
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    The topic of this thread is Charis & Sadaqa. If you are too ignorant to contribute to the discussion, go long, long, long away...

  11. #20
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...ra=6&verse=163
    
    (6:163) He has no associate. Thus have I been bidden, and I am the foremost of those who submit themselves (to Allah).`
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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