Old-earth verse?

[lee_merrill]

Just realized that this verse might indicate a timeframe longer than 6000 years:

"Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments." (Deut 7:9 NKJ)

This seems to say he's done this, so what would this be, maybe 50,000 years?

Blessings,
Lee

[KBertsche]

Just realized that this verse might indicate a timeframe longer than 6000 years:

"Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments." (Deut 7:9 NKJ)

This seems to say he's done this, so what would this be, maybe 50,000 years?

Blessings,
Lee

I think it should be fairly obvious that "a thousand generations" is a figure of speech (poetic phrase? exaggeration?) meaning "forever."

That said, this still might be a useful verse to raise with YECs for a couple of reasons:
1) it shows that the Scripture should not always be read as literally as possible
2) it shows that even Moses' narrative writings can contain figures of speech or poetic constructs

[lee_merrill]

I think it should be fairly obvious that "a thousand generations" is a figure of speech (poetic phrase? exaggeration?) meaning "forever.

It may indeed be figurative, yet here is a parallel passage, probably even the source for the statement in Deuteronomy:

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exo 20:5-6 NIV)

Now I would find it odd if the "third and fourth generation" was just a poetic phrase, it's certainly not an exaggeration, and odd too if the one phrase was specific and prosaic, and not the other.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. Now "generations" is not in the Hebrew in Ex. 20:6, yet it seems it was understood, given the text in Deuteronomy where the word does appear.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

As much as I am old-earth, I agree. This is hyperbole. One could even say the Earth was created at a YEC time and yet this is entirely future. There can be a thousand generations.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Unless you think the 1001st generation is out of luck and that someone other than God owns the cattle on the 1001st hill and that while one day in God's court might be better than 1000outside, all bets are off if we are talking about 1001 outside.... unless all of that, no that verse is absolutely useless in this debate.

[lee_merrill]

One could even say the Earth was created at a YEC time and yet this is entirely future. There can be a thousand generations.

'Tis true, that's how I had understood this verse before, that is, before my grand enlightenment in the opening post. That is perhaps not now so grand.

Unless you think the 1001st generation is out of luck and that someone other than God owns the cattle on the 1001st hill and that while one day in God's court might be better than 1000outside, all bets are off if we are talking about 1001 outside...

Erm, good point. Good points. However, the cattle are not contrasted with Farmer Bob's cattle on three hills, and I would say the 1000-to-one better-is-one-day comparison is meant both poetically and factually. Though not to the degree of saying one day is exactly equal to a thousand elsewhere!

Blessings,
Lee

[KBertsche]

Just realized that this verse might indicate a timeframe longer than 6000 years:

"Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments." (Deut 7:9 NKJ)

This seems to say he's done this, so what would this be, maybe 50,000 years?

Blessings,
Lee

Psalm 90:4 is well-known and I'm sure has been discussed at TWeb. But it might be a better OEC verse:

NET Bible

Yes, in your eyes a thousand years
are like yesterday that quickly passes,
or like one of the divisions of the nighttime.

© source where applicable

This is a poetic book and is also metaphor, of course. It's not an equation saying that the creation week was actually 6000 years.

But notice the author of the Psalm--Moses. Here is solid, biblical evidence that the author of Genesis 1 COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically. This might instill a bit of doubt in the YEC reading of Genesis 1.

[lee_merrill]

This is a poetic book and is also metaphor, of course. It's not an equation saying that the creation week was actually 6000 years.

Agreed.

But notice the author of the Psalm--Moses. Here is solid, biblical evidence that the author of Genesis 1 COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically. This might instill a bit of doubt in the YEC reading of Genesis 1.

That's true, indeed it seems Biblical usage includes the old-earth idea of "day." One good resource along these lines is "A Matter of Days" by Hugh Ross and others. To get the full perspective, you could also read Jonathan Safarti's "Refuting Compromise." So taking these together would be like the point-counterpoint kind of discussions...

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

I think now I'm agreeing with you all, it's probably poetic.

Blessings,
Lee

[Howze]

What about these three. Hard to square these with a young earth!

Hab3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.

Deut 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;

Gen 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Notice how the age of the hills and mountains are compared to eternity!

[Vertetuesi]

As much as I am old-earth, I agree. This is hyperbole. One could even say the Earth was created at a YEC time and yet this is entirely future. There can be a thousand generations.

My thought too. Only you don't have to say "earth", just "mankind".

Psalm 90:4 is well-known and I'm sure has been discussed at TWeb. But it might be a better OEC verse:

NET Bible

Yes, in your eyes a thousand years
are like yesterday that quickly passes,
or like one of the divisions of the nighttime.

© source where applicable

This is a poetic book and is also metaphor, of course. It's not an equation saying that the creation week was actually 6000 years.

But notice the author of the Psalm--Moses. Here is solid, biblical evidence that the author of Genesis 1 COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically. This might instill a bit of doubt in the YEC reading of Genesis 1.

"Could", yes; "did", no. How did you make that logical jump?

Context determines use.

What about these three. Hard to square these with a young earth!

Hab3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.

Deut 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;

Gen 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Notice how the age of the hills and mountains are compared to eternity!

Deuteronomy actually calls them eternal! Your argument proves too much.

In the same vein Elisha imposed leprosy on covetous Gehazi "for ever", but that evidently wasn't very long as we find him later restored to his service.

Regardless of this particular discussion, the fact remains that it ultimately makes no difference what the days of Genesis 1 are, because the rest of the Bible is cumulatively unequivocal against the earth being millions of years old....

[KBertsche]

But notice the author of the Psalm--Moses. Here is solid, biblical evidence that the author of Genesis 1 COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically. This might instill a bit of doubt in the YEC reading of Genesis 1.

"Could", yes; "did", no. How did you make that logical jump?

Context determines use.

There is no logical jump. Moses, the author of Genesis 1, COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically in Psalm 90:4. Do you disagree that "day" in Psalm 90:4 is metaphorical??

[greentwiga]

Psalm 90:4 is well-known and I'm sure has been discussed at TWeb. But it might be a better OEC verse:

NET Bible

Yes, in your eyes a thousand years
are like yesterday that quickly passes,
or like one of the divisions of the nighttime.

© source where applicable

This is a poetic book and is also metaphor, of course. It's not an equation saying that the creation week was actually 6000 years.

But notice the author of the Psalm--Moses. Here is solid, biblical evidence that the author of Genesis 1 COULD and DID use the word "day" metaphorically. This might instill a bit of doubt in the YEC reading of Genesis 1.

Why forget the second part, the thousand years is like a division in the night. A watch was about four hours, so one day would be 6,000 years and the 6 days of creation would be 36,000 years long. Of course, the phrase, giving two definitions, shows that this is meant to be an indeterminate amount, but very long.

[greentwiga]

What about these three. Hard to square these with a young earth!

Hab3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made the nations tremble. The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal.

Deut 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;

Gen 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers.

Notice how the age of the hills and mountains are compared to eternity!

There is an interesting passage in Job 14:18-19 Mountains erode and water wears away stone. This also pictures immense amounts of time.

[greentwiga]

Unless you think the 1001st generation is out of luck and that someone other than God owns the cattle on the 1001st hill and that while one day in God's court might be better than 1000outside, all bets are off if we are talking about 1001 outside.... unless all of that, no that verse is absolutely useless in this debate.

No problem. It doesn't say that it stops at a thousand generations. It does show that the interpretation that the earth was created 4004 BC and similar arguments are likely to be wrong.